How Does Aikido Deal with Resistance?

[CaliG]

[Ron Panunto]

That was great CaliG, I told you Steven's aikido could handle resistance.

[CaliG]

I wish I could kick ass like that.

I like the one where he slams dude's head on the table.

That's a keeper.

[Interloper]

[CaliG]

Nice!

[tastydurian]

It wasn't the technique repertoire but the aiki derived from Daito-ryu aikijujutsu that gave Ueshiba (aikido's founder) its "place" and power. The sad part is that aikido became the "interpretive dance" as soon as Ueshiba stopped teaching internal skills (aiki) and left his aikido descendents with an empty box which they were forced, in the absence of aiki, to fill with externally driven technique and the necessity of cooperative ukes.

Interesting. Was there an actual time that Ueshiba "stopped" teaching the aiki? Because I practiced Yoshinkan Aikido for a number of years, which is supposed to be from Ueshiba's early years, and I didn't get very many internal pointers at all. Although I suppose it could have just gotten lost along the way, as Gozo Shioda was supposedly very good.

[Interloper]

Tasty,
IIRC, once Ueshiba turned the school over to his son, Kisshomaru, and took off on his own adventures, that was the end of aiki in the curriculum. He may have stopped teaching it himself sooner, but I'll have to go back to my references for citations that might confirm that.

If you descend deep into the archival vaults of Yoshinkan's hombu dojo, you'll find film reels of Shioda giving demos in which he displays both the aiki/internal skills and the trademark external waza of Daito-ryu Kodo-kai, which is where he got his internal body skills. He didn't get it from Ueshiba, and is reputed to have gone off to the source where he knew he could get the goodies: Horikawa Kodo, a direct student and aiki recipient of Takeda Sokaku, creator of Daito-ryu.

Actually, a lot of those films were converted to video and are now on YouTube. But, they were once a tippy-top secret within Yoshinkan.

[WVMark]

It would be interesting to compare the differences between how some of the top old school guys trained and most people now.

There is a thread on Aikiweb that goes into this kind of topic. It's here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14753

Long thread, shortened -- the old greats trained for about 5-10 years and were great by then. Not 20-40 years. As to what they trained "exactly", well, that's hard to find. There isn't very much written about their exact training regimen, just what art they were training.

As for some of the critics of his videos, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I disagree with the idea that this is the wrong way to go. I'm sure Mr. Heins does and has done plenty of the cooperative practices almost all Aikidoka solely do, but when resistance enters the equation, even the most masterful technican will look un-flowy and Aiki like unless they have had a lot of mat time with "aliveness" (please don't shoot me for that - I get equally board at Thornton"s word). I'd like to see more high level practitioners of Aikido doing the kinds of things Mr. Heins is doing, and see how they fare against someone who isn't jumping all over the place for them and giving them a good dose of resistance.

I don't disagree that there should be "aliveness" to one's training. I actually do agree. But, I disagree with how Mr. Hein is approaching it. My opinion only.

Mark

[Raphael]

A question i may be able to help with at last:

Ai - Harmony
Ki - Power
Do - Way

Roughly translates as the Way of powerful/dynamic harmony

The idea with Aikido is that it blends. What i mean is it will flow with a persons attack and apply some kind of technique. this technique can be used for many different purposes. To break a bone, to subdue the attacker, to throw them and so on. Whereas Aikido goes with the joints, something like jujitsu goes against them. so Aikido is a bit more harmonious. The philosophy being to take a person down with minimakl to no damage, though I must admit it has been some time since I've done it.
From the small bits i've read, Chin Naa does the same thing, but sometimes in smaller ways, like a finger lock. Aikido only relies on bigger joints, the arms. In essence you take their momentum, blend (dodge and apply the technique/lock) and then do one of the things i mentioned above. It's a great art, but as I've read more about Xing Yi and Taiji they both sound more interesting and maybe even more complete (not that i'm one to judge yet).

[Interloper]

Raphael, aikido --is-- jujutsu, albeit a much milder adaptation of it.

That said, I don't find anything harmonious about aikido, except that uke has to cooperate with nage in order for technique to work! That's why everyone gets good at taking ukemi (learning how to fall, roll, etc.) and it looks so pretty. But the art isn't really set up to deal with actual active resistance, particularly by someone who knows how, strategically and tactically, to really hit, and grapple.

Also, don't mistake the application of pain with actual control (of joints, skeleton, etc.); aikido, in the absence of a means for truly controlling the opponent's body, has to opt for pain compliance, but pain often doesn't work, and it is not difficult to get out of a typical aikido pin or lock, or to prevent it being done to you in the first place.