Straight From The Curved

[kenneth delves]

It sounds like the way bare knuckle fighters punch, the knuckles slice across like a knife blade

[Walk the Torque]

Ahh interesting, Thanks.

I wonder, is it the way the fist contacts and drags on the muscle or the way the energy is transfered into the body that makes it hurt more?

[D_Glenn]

That quick dragging/raking or slicing with the knuckles is called 碴 cha - which literally means to pick up a broken piece of glass and use it to cut with. Similar jin to 'zhan' only smaller. That quick raking motion should be added to the end of basically all the punches in bagua.




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[Chanchu]

Very little straight movement in the human body when striking

"Limbs however are comprised of complex moving parts. A so called straight punch is actually a curvulinear movement, the shoulder rotates, the elbow moves in an arc, etc. etc. Straight and curved together*"

* from wing chun site

http://books.google.com/books?id=K2AoqL ... tt3s&hl=en

[bailewen]

Hmm good point, but the kind of strike I'm talking about is hitting the target at quite an oblique angle. Maybe Beng is done in this way, I don't know.

Not like I would know, but it sounds more like Heng to me.

[Walk the Torque]

Just loving this word "curvulinear". Will try to fit it into a conversation as many times as I can

[Chanchu]

"If you exagerate the natural curvilinier movement of your body and utilize your tendons to increase power generation to the point of application-- its gonna hurt."

try that- it will give people a head ache. It gave me a head ache when I had to take a kinesiology class.


Actually- I think it is useful to try to study how the body's power and force generation works in martial arts.. try to combine old knowlege with the new and try figure some things out.

Someone should write a book on that- have to be a scholer and a skilled KF guy. You would also have to know how to spell.

[Wuyizidi]

According to the principle, everything we do in Taiji Quan are made up of circles, even apparently straight line movements. How can that be?

The answer can be found in Laozi's famous saying "a big curvature resembles a straight line" 大曲若直. People used to think the earth is flat. It is curved, but the curvature takes place over such a long distance, relative to the physical dimension of man, that it looks flat to us with unaided vision.

In terms of martial art, this is linked to one of the most important concepts in Taiji Quan. That is, when fighting against someone, always project your movement so that you create a larger circle which envelopes the other person. Li Yiyu - Sun Lutang's grandmaster in Taiji Quan, wrote a very famous article detailing what Taiji Qyan fighting at the higher levels should be like, where he talked about covering, blanketing, swallowing ... the opponent's qi. If we don't use the word qi, and just look at externally what happens, we can say a big part of that is about using a larger circle to control smaller circle(s).

And of course in real fighting we don't always physically complete a circle. So a punch that is a part of a VERY large circle can look like just a straight punch.


Wuyizidi

[shawnsegler]

Li Yiyu - Sun Lutang's grandmaster in Taiji Quan, wrote a very famous article

I don't suppose we could get one of our chinese speaking friends to do a translation on said article could we?



S- notorious translation mooch

[Walk the Torque]

According to the principle, everything we do in Taiji Quan are made up of circles, even apparently straight line movements. How can that be?

The answer can be found in Laozi's famous saying "a big curvature resembles a straight line" 大曲若直. People used to think the earth is flat. It is curved, but the curvature takes place over such a long distance, relative to the physical dimension of man, that it looks flat to us with unaided vision.

In terms of martial art, this is linked to one of the most important concepts in Taiji Quan. That is, when fighting against someone, always project your movement so that you create a larger circle which envelopes the other person. Li Yiyu - Sun Lutang's grandmaster in Taiji Quan, wrote a very famous article detailing what Taiji Qyan fighting at the higher levels should be like, where he talked about covering, blanketing, swallowing ... the opponent's qi. If we don't use the word qi, and just look at externally what happens, we can say a big part of that is about using a larger circle to control smaller circle(s).

And of course in real fighting we don't always physically complete a circle. So a punch that is a part of a VERY large circle can look like just a straight punch.


Wuyizidi

Always like your posts Wuyizidi

[nianfong]

wyzd, nice post as usual man. do you have a copy of the essay by li yi yu in chinese? we can all take a stab at translation then

-Fong

[Michael Babin]

"Seeking the straight from the curved" can be; for example, using a parry or deflection of incoming force to set the attacker up by making them stumble downwards or lose their balance enough in any direction so that he or she is more vulnerable to a relatively straight line of counterattack.

In other words, curves are most useful for defending and can be used to set-up a straight line offense whether that involves striking with an open hand, fist or pushing/pressing.

Oh, and talking about this -- or any -- strategy is much easier than implementing it against someone who doesn't stop as opposed to being the "dummy" in a demonstration who leaves their arm or leg extended after pretending to attack.

[Walk the Torque]

[quote="Michael BabinIn other words, curves are most useful for defending and can be used to set-up a straight line offense whether that involves striking with an open hand, fist or pushing/pressing.

[/quote]

My point though was that I have found more power in the curved strike. I don't disagree that circles are great for defense, but I find them really good for offense.

[Michael Babin]

Yes, Walk the Torque, hooks, as an example of a curved strike, are great for attacking as long as the curves are fairly tight and your appreciation of distance and timing is better than the other fellas. No argument there, I was writing more from the perspective of the famous taiji saying.

[Wuyizidi]

My mistake, it's written by Sun Lutang's great-grandmaster Wu Yuxiang.

Here's the translation (with original text) of the Four Word Secrete Formula by my teacher (he's the one in green, the other one is one of my senior gongfu brothers), with a brief introduction on Qi: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Qi-In_TJQ/Qi-in-TJQ1.html


Wuyizidi