Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:02 pm

Steve, i was utilising the power of sarcasm.....
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Dmitri on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:03 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Taijiquan people also don't like to 'Block'

FWIW, I was taught that "attacking the attacking limb" is distinctly different from "blocking". The differentiation being that with the former you (first) position yourself to avoid the attack and (then) you attack the limb. In reality, IMO something like that would only work with a really large disparity in skill, or if the other guy is drunk, etc. With the latter, you use your strike to the limb to primarily deflect the attack, with actual damage to the limb being coincidental and secondary. And yes, that's generally not the "proper", or the best, response to an attack for "Taijiquan people"...
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:15 pm

Dmitri, i also was utilisin' a bit o' thee olde sarcasm.


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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:16 pm

Student : owww! That block hurt!

Master: I am not blocking! I am attacking your limb!

Student: what is the difference oh great master?

Master: blocking is low level external martial art!

Student: so it's the same but you just call it something different?

Master: errr........! Shut up and practice more!
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:34 pm

Dmitri wrote:FWIW, I was taught that "attacking the attacking limb" is distinctly different from "blocking". The differentiation being that with the former you (first) position yourself to avoid the attack and (then) you attack the limb. In reality, IMO something like that would only work with a really large disparity in skill, or if the other guy is drunk, etc. With the latter, you use your strike to the limb to primarily deflect the attack, with actual damage to the limb being coincidental and secondary. And yes, that's generally not the "proper", or the best, response to an attack for "Taijiquan people"...

Not going into the issue of whether or not it's blocking (that's BTDT at least 3 or more times in the past), but I just wanted to mention that you're actually kind of mixing 2 or 3 separate tactics together.

What I mentioned is the 1st one and it's the easiest, most natural one.

The 2nd one also comes somewhat naturally but requires some training and it's dealing with the opponent's attack where you didn't get the chance, or rather missed the opportunity to 'attack his attack' so you have to then try to neutralize/ transform it into something less damaging, and then counterattack.

The 3rd and hardest to do, (and requires experience so it's considered advanced level), is where your neutralizing/ transforming movement is also your attack. (In Baguazhang that's the Kun Trigram's tactic.)

But circling back around to the 1st tactic - if your initial and most basic, natural defense breaks his bone (a Da becoming a Na) and simultaneously neutralizes/ transforms (Hua) his attack(s) then that's also good and considered an advanced level of skill.


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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby dragonprawn on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:59 pm

Steve,

Our teacher's ph would be considered more of a strikers ph, would it not?
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:32 pm

Yep. Back in the day, you could get clocked. Ya hadda get outta the way :) Oh, and you were supposed to really "give" the other guy something to get out of the way of ;)
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:44 pm

neijia_boxer wrote:According to Louis Swaim a translator of Taiji text says this from http://www.Yangfamilytaichi.com:

...or to dāshǒu 搭手, which means something like "joining hands." [/i]

I'm writing from vague memories but I have found some more information that I believe has kind of confirmed them.

搭手 Dāshǒu (I think was translated as Bridging Hands) is the older term for practice/ training to fight and kind of falling under that and including it is: 揉手 Róushǒu (Rubbing Hands); 打手 Dǎ​shǒu (Hitting/ Striking Hands); 盤手 Pánshǒu (Coiling Hands); 磨手 Moshǒu (Grinding Hands); and 揭手 Jiēshǒu (Lifting(?) Hands). In the mid-late 1800s they needed to find something that was in-between all the different methods so Tuishou (Pushing Hands) became the standard amongst different styles to compare skills without getting into a brawl yet still be something that's equally developed amongst the different styles.

There's a lot of Bridging training skills in older martial arts but it'd be hard to compare to what was incorporated into Xingyi and Bagua because the names may be the same but not necessarily the practice. 打手 Dǎ​shǒu is just a catch-all term for practicing striking in the different styles and they're kind of style specific and dependent upon having actual development before they're started. 磨手 Moshǒu (Grinding Hands) I'm fairly certain is more Baguazhang's thing and the exercises are brutally difficult because they require a genuine whole-body strength and you also need to work with someone who's at or near your same level of development.


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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby yeniseri on Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:36 pm

I thought "moushou" was 'pork hands' 8-)
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Taichiturtle on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:47 am

FWIW in my school, we refer to the striking aspect of dynamic push hands as 'Ta Shou' or 'striking hands' to delineate it from the other (static) form of pushing. If this is the same word, I know not as I am completely ignorant of all dialects of Chinese.
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:03 am

Taichiturtle wrote:FWIW in my school, we refer to the striking aspect of dynamic push hands as 'Ta Shou' or 'striking hands' to delineate it from the other (static) form of pushing. If this is the same word, I know not as I am completely ignorant of all dialects of Chinese.


Same word, different romanization.
Ta=Wade-Giles
Da=Pinyin (Chinese official transcribation)
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Yuen-Ming on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:15 am

D_Glenn wrote:
neijia_boxer wrote:According to Louis Swaim a translator of Taiji text says this from http://www.Yangfamilytaichi.com:

...or to dāshǒu 搭手, which means something like "joining hands." [/i]

I'm writing from vague memories but I have found some more information that I believe has kind of confirmed them.

搭手 Dāshǒu (I think was translated as Bridging Hands) is the older term for practice/ training to fight and kind of falling under that and including it is: 揉手 Róushǒu (Rubbing Hands); 打手 Dǎ​shǒu (Hitting/ Striking Hands); 盤手 Pánshǒu (Coiling Hands); 磨手 Moshǒu (Grinding Hands); and 揭手 Jiēshǒu (Lifting(?) Hands). In the mid-late 1800s they needed to find something that was in-between all the different methods so Tuishou (Pushing Hands) became the standard amongst different styles to compare skills without getting into a brawl yet still be something that's equally developed amongst the different styles.


Dear Glenn, may I ask if this info comes from public sources?

Thanks

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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby Taichiturtle on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:19 am

Bao wrote:
Taichiturtle wrote:FWIW in my school, we refer to the striking aspect of dynamic push hands as 'Ta Shou' or 'striking hands' to delineate it from the other (static) form of pushing. If this is the same word, I know not as I am completely ignorant of all dialects of Chinese.


Same word, different romanization.
Ta=Wade-Giles
Da=Pinyin (Chinese official transcribation)


Thought so, for exactly those reasons.

This is Ta Shou, as demonstrated by some of my classmates:

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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby extrajoseph on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:30 am

According to the Taijiquan dictionery 太极拳辞典, Dashou (Striking Hands) is another name for Tuishou (Push Hands) or Jishou (Push-against Hands)
太極拳辭典:《打手歌》. 打手 即推手,又名《擠手歌》。其作者為王宗岳。
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Re: Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:55 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
...may I ask if this info comes from public sources?

Thanks


My information comes mostly from my teacher's discussions but he often references classic and modern writings. I believe this is (part of) one of the articles:

据有关史料表明:太级、形意、八卦、通背、意拳(大成拳)以及一些南拳如鹤拳、泳春等,历史上都采用过搭手形式操练技击实战。产生根源是为解决在两人实搏中,时常发生的相互缠绕扭打、难解难分,不分胜负的问题。此外,更重要的是,在武术实战中,前辈们意识到基础训练与实践搏击之间存在很大的训练距离,期盼着产生一种能拉近训练与实战距离的方法,同时,又感到训练体系中,应该有个把技击活动中人体用力的方式和规律与攻防技术及安全性融为一体的双人技击训练方法。推手就是为能综合性地解决这些问题产生的。
对于这种特殊训练形式的基本要求是:
(一)能成为基础训练向实践应用的特殊过渡手段,可提高和检验自身功力和各项运动素质。
(二)能作为拳术中找劲的重要手段,是得力之由,还是渐悟懂劲和由懂劲而阶及神明的重要体悟方式。同时又是体认技击时的用力方式和规律的极佳形式。
(三)能在两人纠缠扭打混战中,充分体现中国武术在搭接状态下独特的打放结合的技击特色,可弥补散手之不足。
明末清初以后,一些武术优秀拳种,在师徒授艺和同门师兄弟内部切磋技艺时,分别采用推手技术作为交流研讨技击的手段.传说在京都中,杨露蝉、董海川、郭云深三人曾分别比试过技艺,在频繁的交流研讨中,历史上的三派重要传人在检验武术水平高低时考虑到安全性,大都采用搭手形式来作为重要的交流方式。因此,极有力地促进太极、形意、八卦实战技击水平的提高和发展,同时,也使推手技术不断成熟和完善,形成了今人所见的风格各异、各有所长的不同流派推手特色。
王芗斋先生创建的意拳推手,也是沿着这一发展脉络与其它流派不断交融、渗透,并不断提高完善而形成的更为独特、新颖的推手形式。是在传统形意拳钻、翻、拧、裹的盘手基础上,吸收借鉴杨氏少侯太极推手沾、粘、连、随特色,程廷华、刘凤春八卦磨手推、托、带、领风格,解铁夫武技散手一触即发的搭手和金绍峰鹤拳的活泼灵巧的揉手等特点,不断的融合、发展而形成的。除具备推手共同特点之外,更突出简捷、精巧、内涵丰富的实用特色。在理论和技术体系上都作了较大的扬弃、改革和创新。在实践中,又根据其阶段性功能和作用,创立搭点揉手放人的竞赛推手和半搭点半搭点半断点的打放结合的实战推手两种形式。

It was written by an Yiquan guy so... but his research into the historical aspects is sound.

More on 搭手 Dāshǒu (Bridging/ Meeting Hands - a controlled way to compare martial skills) - there had started to become so many rules like you could hit a certain area of a body, but not the acupuncture points in that area, and since everyone knew point hitting it became hard for it not to turn into a brawl when one guy felt like the other guy was going for the off-limit area. So they came up with using Tuishou to compare skills because it's used in all the different northern styles to develop zhan, nian, lian, and sui so everybody knew it. Where the other hand/arm training drills are more style specific.


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Last edited by D_Glenn on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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