Yang Taiji strike hands (da shou 打手), strike before you push

[allen2saint]

And as for "play" TCC, there are no words for my contempt at this phrase! "Play" is synomous in the English language with pleasurable and trivial persuits, training through exhaustion and injury, honing those skills in full contact competition where one can be legally killed, and finally using such acquired skills to overcome situations where your life is threatened with weapons or at the very least your physical welfare disregarded to the point where there is no qualms from your opponents about permanently damaging you, well such experience does not equate with tiddlywinks, it is not a "game".

Also its always the tree-huggers whonise this phrase, as if to atempt to sterilise TCC, excercise the demon of martial art that haunts their chi-dance.

The most dangerous person I know uses this phrase all the time when teaching. And as I recall, that "tree hugger" Don Draeger wrote extensively about how martial arts practice must retain a feeling of play for it to be effective as a teaching tool.

[Ba-men]

I thought there was no striking in Taijiquan... Yes I'm sure I read it here somewhere...

[neijia_boxer]

I thought there was no striking in Taijiquan... Yes I'm sure I read it here somewhere...

I think the problem started here: where D_Glenn says:

"In the mid-late 1800s they needed to find something that was in-between all the different methods so Tuishou (Pushing Hands) became the standard amongst different styles to compare skills without getting into a brawl yet still be something that's equally developed amongst the different styles."

This is where the internals like Taiji got pussified and the striking removed.... thus now we have Taijiquan guys who think they can fight by learning form and push hands.

[Steve James]

Well, the problem is that there is no definitive example of what "push hands" or tuishou is. Rather, it just describes partner practice, and almost every branch of ima has its own version. The goal of all, however, is "free hands" --not the "san shou" set, either. Push hands was never a "goal." What happened was that many people turned it into "the" competition, and so it became endless. Worse, phs competitions arose. That and the idea that there needed to be Bagua, XY and TCC tournaments (--because no one seemed to be using them in open tournaments). Imo, both are bad ideas

[D_Glenn]

打手 Dǎshǒu is developing the 技 jì (skill) of 击(擊) jī (hitting). Which all Chinese Martial Arts seek.

I'd mentioned that Chen Xiaowang had said that one needs to learn how to use 'Bolang Jin' (Spinal Wave)/ 'Fa' (issuing/launching) in every movement of the forms, not just in the several movements that it's used in during the Chen forms. But there's also another Chen form that 'Fa' (issues) power in every movement and is also more for just striking rather than grappling, as issuing power when you have someone's arm in a lock is just going to break or maim the joint and is mostly unnecessary except in extreme cases of self-defense.

It's called the Sanshou form because apparently it's working towards that goal of free usage of striking in a fight.

I've watched through parts of the video and while it's not what I'd consider a superb demonstration of striking as it's only shown in a casual manner, it could maybe help to give you Taiji guys a better understanding of how Taiji's methods are used to strike:

#24159 Taiji with Zhu Tian Cai
Taiji San Shou

San Shou takes the fundamentals of Taiji: mixed slowness and speed; relaxation; reeling energy; softness combined with hardness; as the basis of application self defense. San Shou, which basically means "miscellaneous hands", shows representative techniques for defense by applying the principles of Chen style Taiji.

53, 56 minutes Double Mandarin/ English Subtitles ~ http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcol ... iancai.htm

.

[daniel pfister]

Well, the problem is that there is no definitive example of what "push hands" or tuishou is. Rather, it just describes partner practice, and almost every branch of ima has its own version. The goal of all, however, is "free hands" --not the "san shou" set, either. Push hands was never a "goal." What happened was that many people turned it into "the" competition, and so it became endless. Worse, phs competitions arose. That and the idea that there needed to be Bagua, XY and TCC tournaments (--because no one seemed to be using them in open tournaments). Imo, both are bad ideas

+1

[D_Glenn]

I found a video that shows the 42 move Sanshou/ Fajin form for Striking (Da; Ji) Applications (It's an entirely different video from the one I linked above):



Part 2



.

[wuwei sifu]

And as for "play" TCC, there are no words for my contempt at this phrase! "Play" is synomous in the English language with pleasurable and trivial persuits, training through exhaustion and injury, honing those skills in full contact competition where one can be legally killed, and finally using such acquired skills to overcome situations where your life is threatened with weapons or at the very least your physical welfare disregarded to the point where there is no qualms from your opponents about permanently damaging you, well such experience does not equate with tiddlywinks, it is not a "game".

Also its always the tree-huggers whonise this phrase, as if to atempt to sterilise TCC, excercise the demon of martial art that haunts their chi-dance.

wup Niall K,
Dude I feel you are too sensitive and create in your mind a mountain when there is only a mole hill to see/touch.

I'm a person/teacher who uses the term play. I tell my students that the attitude you should have is much like when you are playing a game (physical one) where you are free of tension and your spirit is allowed to just be without struggle/inhibition.

I am also would not be classed as a tree hugger, although I have done some training with trees in various ways and even the needles of pine trees lol. I let my students know that Taijiquan is a martial art first and foremost and though our class is gear toward health/rehabilitation issues primarily I always fins myself using martial application to teach the postures and allow them to see/feel what it's like to use the body, mind, & spirit in different way ...


I would also put this out for you to consider. If someone is doing what they are taught and it's taijiquan and they feel energy in the beginning & through out their chi dance they are doing something correct & quite useful too.

you sounded angry when you wrote about the use of play & then chose your meaning of it to fit what you did not like. think about it both of us are speaking about the same word "play"; yet, we view it and express it differently. our egos/hearts are at the root of this dual expression of the same word imho.

some folks would argue that many team sports/individual sports too are not trivial. frankly most are in my hearts view so far as they relate to the essence of human existence; but I can also see how in another persons heart it feels differently.

So said all that to end up saying this. We see the same thing differently all the time, this is especially true in martial arts, much the same as it is in chess as well as life too.

based on where we are we view/see the same thing at our level of understanding this includes input from our experiences of course. so when I see the chess board/opponents body while we are engaged in a fight what I do is based on my understanding at the time, could be having a good day, bad, day or combo day , my mental outlook at the time will change based on my surroundings and issues I have been dealing with. some of which may be quite stressful. so all these variables affect how you fight for most people. some folks just sort of flip a switch/naturally morph into combat mode at a high level of ability.

Note: yes, this version of my "play" answer I write so that i'm more clear then maybe the causal way I say it to my students; I know how some of you get over small things lol.

ok that's enuff I'm medicated now

[bailewen]

I kind of agree with Wuwei on this one.

I can see great arguments for and against using the term but either way, it's silly to read to much into it. It's really just an artifact of various Chinese speakers poor grasp of English. They took a shot in the dark, and educated guess at which verb to use and a lot of us native English speakers find the mistake kind of cute and that's why they sometimes use it.

After all, the correct verb in Chinese is "da"/打 which litereally means "to hit" or "strike". But since that's the verb used in Chinese for "play guitar" because you "strike" the stings. But more importantly you "play soccer" or most other sports. So since "da" is the Chinese verb for most sports and "play" is the English verb for most sports...people just make the logical jump to the wrong conclusion.

And seriously, even in English, play doesn't have to mean "fun, not serious". We play recordings and play music and "get played" so it's all good.

[Doc Stier]

+1. Players play on! Word.

[Steve James]

So since "da" is the Chinese verb for most sports and "play" is the English verb for most sports...people just make the logical jump to the wrong conclusion.

I think there are two things at work; what the Chinese-speaker who used the term, and what the English-speaker meant in the translation. But, did anyone actually translate "da" as "play" at all? I thought the term being discussed was "da shou" (?) as opposed to "tui shou" as names for the 2-person practice called "push hands." I don't think anyone has meant "play hands," though they might say that they "play" push hands (or da shou or tui shou).

Imo, the idea of play basically means "action." Right, as in play music or play sports, ... or gun play. So, maybe if the reader thinks that the translator means play as in "not serious," then it's not play in that sense. Doesn't mean it ain't play.

I don't speak Chinese, but I remember the scene in "Enter the Dragon" when Shek Kin (Master Han) is ordering his men to get Lee and the other captives. Han keeps yelling "Da, da, da". I didn't think he meant "Play, play." I thought he meant "Kill, Kill."

[D_Glenn]

Necro threading this thread from last year as it answers some questions about 'Da Shou' in Yiquan (basically reverse-engineered from Taiji push hands with modern Boxing), but there's some information I wanted to add that I'd previously written, and some links to add:

I didn't want to put too much information out on this forum / or rather it's so much to translate that a bad translation might be worse than none at all. I posted what I remembered from a lecture but I'd also found a Chinese article written around 2004 by some Yiquan guy who did a lot of research. So some more from that article:

搭手 Dāshǒu goes back to the 1200s but the other terms are hard to date. He also mentions that Roushou is originally a 'Feeding Crane Boxing practice' which was popular in Beijing; Panshou is a xingyi practice because it develops drilling, twisting, wringing etc. ; Moshou is a Bagua practice because it develops tui, tou, dai, ling, ban, kou, pi, and Jin. And Tuishou develops zhan, nian, lian, and sui, which is in all 3 styles so that's why it was chosen as the standard. Da(the Ji (skill) of Ji (Hitting))shou is just striking and Sanshou is more free fighting so neither of those would have been a good choice for a standard and safe way to test the skills between different schools.

It's an extremely long article and it'd be difficult to verify. It says Dong Haichuan, Yang Luchan, Guo Yunshen all came up with this during meetings in Beijing.

推手—从基础训练向实战技击过渡的阶段性练功方法（林肇仑）（全文）

武术推手是中华民族传统武学文化的重要组成，由于其独具安全性，又不需任何护具和固定场地，因此，受到不同性别、不同年龄习练者欢迎。
目前，武术推手分民间推手和竞技推手两种形式，并形成相对独立的体系。
推手在历史和传统上称谓较多，如：搭手、揉手、打手、盘手、磨手、揭手等。民间有宋岳武穆王创建双推掌一说，可能是推手思想早期雏形。
据有关史料表明：太级、形意、八卦、通背、意拳（大成拳）以及一些南拳如鹤拳、泳春等，历史上都采用过搭手形式操练技击实战。产生根源是为解决在两人实搏中，时常发生的相互缠绕扭打、难解难分，不分胜负的问题。此外，更重要的是，在武术实战中，前辈们意识到基础训练与实践搏击之间存在很大的训练距离，期盼着产生一种能拉近训练与实战距离的方法，同时，又感到训练体系中，应该有个把技击活动中人体用力的方式和规律与攻防技术及安全性融为一体的双人技击训练方法。推手就是为能综合性地解决这些问题产生的。
对于这种特殊训练形式的基本要求是：
（一）能成为基础训练向实践应用的特殊过渡手段，可提高和检验自身功力和各项运动素质。
（二）能作为拳术中找劲的重要手段，是得力之由，还是渐悟懂劲和由懂劲而阶及神明的重要体悟方式。同时又是体认技击时的用力方式和规律的极佳形式。
（三）能在两人纠缠扭打混战中，充分体现中国武术在搭接状态下独特的打放结合的技击特色，可弥补散手之不足。
明末清初以后，一些武术优秀拳种，在师徒授艺和同门师兄弟内部切磋技艺时，分别采用推手技术作为交流研讨技击的手段.传说在京都中，杨露蝉、董海川、郭云深三人曾分别比试过技艺，在频繁的交流研讨中，历史上的三派重要传人在检验武术水平高低时考虑到安全性，大都采用搭手形式来作为重要的交流方式。因此，极有力地促进太极、形意、八卦实战技击水平的提高和发展，同时，也使推手技术不断成熟和完善，形成了今人所见的风格各异、各有所长的不同流派推手特色。
王芗斋先生创建的意拳推手，也是沿着这一发展脉络与其它流派不断交融、渗透，并不断提高完善而形成的更为独特、新颖的推手形式。是在传统形意拳钻、翻、拧、裹的盘手基础上，吸收借鉴杨氏少侯太极推手沾、粘、连、随特色，程廷华、刘凤春八卦磨手推、托、带、领风格，解铁夫武技散手一触即发的搭手和金绍峰鹤拳的活泼灵巧的揉手等特点，不断的融合、发展而形成的。除具备推手共同特点之外，更突出简捷、精巧、内涵丰富的实用特色。在理论和技术体系上都作了较大的扬弃、改革和创新。在实践中，又根据其阶段性功能和作用，创立搭点揉手放人的竞赛推手和半搭点半搭点半断点的打放结合的实战推手两种形式。
实践中，将半搭半断的打放结合的实战推手形式作为竞赛推手的重要的辅助性训练手段，用以提高竞赛推手中必备的整体协调灵敏性和触觉高度敏感性，以及增强对抗双方身体接触时的应变能力和攻防时空感。此外，还把强化实战技击意识作为主要训练内容，并将实战推手与竞赛推手两种形式作为互为补充，互为促进的训练手段，使之共同构筑意拳竞技推手的科学训练体系。
由于武术流派理论、观点和技击特点各异，形成百花争艳、百花齐放的局面，创立了风格不尽相同的多种形式的武术推手。演变至今，已是一种攻防鲜明、富于技击、比较安全、趣味无穷、深藏哲理、极具魅力的优秀竞技项目。武术推手根据其目的、功能、作用、又分为健身（养生）推手、娱乐（趣味）推手、竞赛（技击）推手三类。
从武术历史发展看，推手形式原为传统拳要的重要练功手段，是从基础训练向实战技击过渡的阶段性练功方法。在长期的技击实战中，武术前辈逐渐学会并掌握和运用刚柔、虚实、松紧变化，去巧妙地破坏对方的身体平衡，使其不能合理用力，而又处处为人所制。为了便于教学、易于训练和安全性，前辈们又将技击技术逐步同实搏技击的两人接触时的断点猛击向半搭点半断点的打人放人过渡，最终演变到了完全粘点的搭手放人与制人。在大量实作中，通过对劲路的掌握、了解和运用，前辈人渐渐懂得拳劲的精巧和微妙，以及由拳劲中产生不可思议的爆炸力量。同时还体验到“借力打力”、“四两拨千斤”、“人不知我、我独知人”和“应敌犹如火烧身”的真实感受。经过锲而不舍的揣摩和探索，继而又悟到“一羽不能加，蝇虫不断落”的轻灵、飘逸的武术技击境界。大量的实践活动使他们认识到：只有在推手中，才能深刻细腻地体会到拳术中各种微妙的感受。这时前辈们已意识到，推手形式是感悟拳术真髓的极佳的练功方式。
环顾武术推手创立、演变、现状及未来发展，从纯技术角度看，推手的难度和复杂性及要求都远大于散手。姚宗勋先生曾说过：“推手可以补散手训练之不足，由于推手技击内在变化比散手技术更为精微，掌握推手技术，会大幅度提高散手水平。”也许这就是推手魅力所在。实践证明，在实战中合理地运用推手技术，可以较好地解决实搏时的纠缠不休的混打和难解难分的状况，因为运用敏感协调的整劲和灵敏变化的点力反应，是可以击散缠绕及打破僵局，同时，还能利索地击打和发放对手。因此，将它作为散手训练重要训练手段，无庸置疑。从实战角度分析，搭手的局面形成是散手攻防交接的结果。因为实战中，你一出手攻击，对方必定出手一迎，于是，就出现了搭手的局面。至于推手的划圈，则是互相寻找攻击空隙和拨转对方之威胁手法及力量的方向，而形成的对抗性运动状态。对于推手体系来讲，单推手是双推手的基础，因此，应从两人单推手训练开始，而后渐入到双推手的训练之中，但是，单双推手的原则、原理并无大差别，仅仅是单手为主的练习和双手相互配合训练之区别。从武术训练角度看，推手形式还是双人试刀，正如芗斋先生所云：“力由试而知，更由知而得其所以用。”基于搏击实战条件下的双人对抗练习要求，在与对方技体接触时，应善于体察对方虚实、强弱和力量的方向，并在不同的情况下，去控制对方，同时施以有效打击。同时还要有攻中有防、防中有攻、以及攻防兼备意识。武术推手是对平时站桩、试力、走步、发力基础训练的具体体验，也是体验自身基本功的一种重要手段。

(Some more information not from the article but from our Baguazhang: Moshou is actually 'Grinding the strength out' and it is a very quick way to judge skills because the lesser skilled person wouldn't be able to move the better guys arm at all and would likely hurt himself in the process. It's a lesser known partner drill/exercise because it takes two friends who are equal to drill it and develop together. If done as an exercise with 2 people who have vastly different skills the better guy would have to let the other person move his arm and then not try too hard when the movement switches and the other guy is trying to prevent him from moving his arm. So it doesn't really benefit either person.)

***
And there's also that article I linked last year or so ago where the Chen Taiji guy writes about need to do more Dashou (striking hands) because they've become too focused and Na Fa (Grasping methods) and the Tuishou isn't developing combat abilities the way it should be:

http://www.21wulin.com/wulin/taiji/tjtd/3840.html
太极拳打手赢拳击/徐太平
来源: 作者:徐太平 点击: 1334 发布时间:2009-03-25 双击鼠标滚 字体:[大 中 小]

习练太极拳，只练拳架，只练推手与拿法，而不练太极拳打手，就很难深刻领会太极拳法的各种要求，很难灵活运用拳架中的各种招术，很难与别的拳法、打法相对抗，很难达到学以致用的目的。领会并真正掌握了太极拳打手，能真正将太极拳的最高造诣展现出来。
　　
　　一、太极拳打手与太极拳拳架、太极拳推手、太极拳拿法的区别
　　
　　(一)太极拳拳架
　　太极拳架是太极推手、太极拿法、太极打手的基础。拳架的招式和趟路都严格地按照虚实开合编排而成。从太极拳创始至今，在漫长的岁月里，太极拳架演变出许多流派，其中著名的有陈、杨、吴、武、孙五大门派和国家套路。
　　太极拳架，首先强调要正确掌握手、眼、身、法、步，使动作准确，姿势合度，趟路连贯，意、气、神、劲和动作相互协调，完整圆满。其次要在长期不断地习练中深入体会一招一式的目的、意义与作用，原则与要求，掌握拳架的特点，为推手、拿法、打手打好良好的基础。习练拳架的健身作用十分显著，许多人通过经常练拳架获得了健康。
　　
　　(二)太极拳推手
　　太极推手是在拳架基础上的进一步发展。太极推手的种类很多，主要可分为定步推手和活步推手两种。定步推手是活步推手的基础，即训练拥、捋、挤、按的四正推手。活步推手有杨式大捋，即训练采、捌、肘、靠的四隅推手，还有单推手、圆形推手，以及各门派的推手。“粘沾连随、不顶不丢”是太极拳推手的基本原则，顶、偏、丢、抗是推手中的主要禁忌。四正推手以脚步的移动作为失利标志。四隅推手则以平衡的保持与破坏，击出或击倒为胜负的分界。
　　
　　(三)太极拳的拿法
　　拿法是擒拿对方身体的一部分，使对方失去抗御能力的方法，太极拳中拿法很多，通过训练，可以使拿法得到升华，应用更加灵活多样，随便什么情况都能擒拿对方。
　　
　　(四)太极拳打手
　　太极打手是太极拳练习技击的方法，也是学习太极拳以致用的途径。太极拳术和其它拳术一样，都包含有击法、拿法和发人之法。而太极打手的击法，就是将太极拳里具有强烈击打功能的招式，用刚劲之力，以迅雷之势击败对手。如掩手肱捶、连环炮、双峰贯耳、打虎式、白猿献果、护心捶、三换掌等等。此外，太极拳中的分脚(弹踢)、蹬脚(正踹)，也属击法。
　　太极打手必须能面对强敌，面对敌手凶猛、激烈、急促、快速的攻击，并能取得胜利。
　　太极打手与太极拳架、太极推手、太极拿法相比，易学、易懂、易运用，见效快，成功率高，实用性强。
　　太极拳打手除太极拳习练者外，还适应没有任何武术基础的少年、青年、中年人群。
　　
　　二、太极打手是太极拳技击的最高阶段
　　
　　在有规则的推手中，尽可能用“听劲”、“懂劲”、“化劲”、“发劲”、“拿劲”把搠、捋、挤、按、采、捌、肘、靠发挥出来，但这些不是太极拳术招式动作中的全部，也不是大部，只能说是很小的一部分。仔细分析太极拳的动作名称，可以看到太极拳招式中的80％～90％都是直接明显的攻击招式，而借力柔化的招式占的较少。如：掩手肱捶、连环炮、双峰贯耳、搂膝拗步、白猿献果、穿掌、迎面掌、白蛇吐信、穿梭、定心捶、连珠炮等等一些招式，就没有搠、捋、挤、按、采、捌、肘、靠的特点，相反它们更具有强烈地攻击性，太极拳不应只有拥、捋、挤、按、采、捌、肘、靠的劲力，而更应有“踢、打、摔、拿、闪、窜、腾、挪”，不应只有借力打力、不顶不丢、引进落空、四两拨千斤、以弱胜强的理念，而更应该有“兵来将挡，水来土掩，针锋相对，以牙还牙”的制胜原则。
　　以太极拳打手视角来看，“不顶不丢”、“粘沾连随”、“引进落空”与太极拳自身的很多招式相互矛盾，如掩手肱捶、双峰贯耳、连环炮、连珠炮、指裆捶、野马分鬃等等，很难做到“不顶不丢”，也无法做到“粘沾连随”而“引进落空”，在激烈地对抗中，很难达到“落空”，反而特别容易造成引狼入室，引火烧身。当对手用快速、迅猛、连续的左右直拳扑来，自己用“不顶不丢”去“粘沾连随”，将敌手“引进”自己的身体，这是非常不可取的，必将惨败!因为那是太极推手中用的招法，而有规则的推手招法是无法承受这个状况的，因此推手不能适应打。太极拳创立的初衷即是，要在以强不能胜强时以弱胜强，以刚不能胜刚时，就以柔克刚的阴阳虚实，灵活运用辩证战术，而并非机械地硬套“以弱胜强，以柔克刚”。太极拳处处都包含着阴与阳，在技击上推手为阴，击打为阳，我们不能只重阴不顾阳，只要阴不要阳。
　　太极拳术中拿法很多，但应该指出，任何拿法都有解法。过于追求拿法，往往弄巧成拙，反遭擒拿或丧失平衡。不要讲对待功深基厚的拳术家，就是对待一般身体强壮、行动灵敏，而能松柔的人，拿法未必能奏效。因此拳术家所谓“好拿不如赖打”、“以打保拿”、“以打保擒”，就是指的这个道理。
　　目前太极拳的击技主要体现在推手和拿法上，但这远不能体现和展示太极拳的技击功能和威力。但是如果一个推手高手同时掌握了打手捶法，那他将如虎添翼，还可能会天下无敌。综合总结太极拳的技击，仅用推手、拿法去对抗散打、拳击类型的打法是无法取得胜利的。很有可能只一个回合就被打得头破血流，结果以惨败告终。太极拳不仅有散打、拳击等打法的打法设计招式，还具有散打、拳击等打法所没有的内气、内劲、弹抖，太极拳除具有直拳、摆拳、钩拳外，还具有连环掌、栽捶、指挡捶以及多种丰富多变的打法，太极拳技击更具有威力，只是我们没有面对现实，去从太极拳的套路中提炼它的精华打法，太极拳术中的大部分招式，如果经过特有的太极打手练习，则能与其它拳法、打法相抗衡，并且有相当程度的获胜条件。(打手捶法使太极拳能适应拳击、散打、泰拳、空手道、跆拳道、自由搏击，以及各种形式的技击格斗，而推手就很难适应。)
　　太极是一个圆圈，太极拳也就是由无数的圆圈连贯成的一种拳法，就在这一个圆圈之中，一半是招架，一半是攻击。也就是说，太极拳的一只手一击出就能起到招架和攻击的作用，因为他是带圆形打出去的，所以一拳出去既能防又能攻，这就是其他拳种没有的效果。在武术界中，有这样一个说法，“太极十年不出门，形意一年打死人，散打三月打一群”。而太极拳打手是完全可以改变这个说法的，从这个角度讲，太极拳打手是太极拳技击的最高阶段，是太极拳的关键所在，是太极拳的最高造诣。
　　
　　三、太极拳打手的打法招式
　　
　　(一)守式型招式
　　太极拳术中的肘底捶、护心捶、手挥琵琶、提手，孙式、武式拳中的推掌等等，都强于形意拳的三体式，也优于拳击的预备式，散打搏击里的格斗式。它们守中有攻，开中有合，特别能做到“彼不动、己不动、彼微动、己先动”。
　　
　　(二)攻式型招式
　　太极拳中的掩手肱捶、连环炮、双峰贯耳、打虎势、白猿献果、护心捶、三换掌、穿掌、连珠炮、双推手、迎面掌、指裆捶、击地捶、搬拦捶、撇身捶、小擒打、野马分鬃、搂膝拗步、玉女穿梭、闪通臂、弯弓射虎、抱头推山等等，都具有很强的攻击性。特别是掩手肱捶、连环炮，他相当于拳击、散打中的直拳，形意拳中的崩拳、钻拳、横拳、小擒打、指裆捶、击地捶相当于短促直拳。双峰贯耳、打虎势、当头炮，如果使用单手打，相当于拳击散打中的摆拳(平钩拳)。而形意中还没有这种劲力的拳法，白猿献果，如果不用提膝顶裆动作，则相当于拳击、散打中的钩拳(上钩拳)，更像泰拳和散打中的拳打膝顶的动作。护心捶又像形意拳中的钻拳。三换掌、穿掌、陈式太极拳的穿梭、白蛇吐信、迎面掌，相当于形意拳的鸡形、猴形招式，也像八卦掌中一些动作招式，也可用在散打之中。连珠炮、双推手、抱虎推山相当于形意拳中的虎形、马形、骀形招式。也相当于八卦掌中的狮子滚球、狮子扑球招式，更像武术散手的动作。玉女穿梭、闪通臂、弯弓射虎，相当于形意拳中的炮拳，拳击、散打中的迎面拳。撇身捶、搬拦捶，相当于形意拳中鹞子翻身、鹞子钻天招式，散打格斗中的转身攻击招术，他们攻中有防，以攻为主，如响斯应，疾如电掣。
　　
　　(三)腿击型招式
　　太极拳术里，左分脚、右分脚为点踢、弹踢；左蹬脚、右蹬脚为踹踢、正踹；蹬一根为侧踹；摆莲腿为外摆，二起脚为高边腿；旋风脚为内合腿；扫堂腿为绊扫脚。拳击中没有任何腿法，形意拳中只有正踹腿。八卦掌中的腿法是以踢为主，踹腿少，其它的腿法没有。散打、跆拳道、泰拳的腿法多，而太极拳中几乎都有。一趟陈式五十六式竞赛套路中有六次用腿法，陈式新架一路十一次用腿法，八十八式太极拳九次用腿法，除二十四式太极拳，其他每种套路都是用腿法五次以上。如果每天练拳五个套路，要练习三十次腿法。在太极拳术中这么多的腿法设计，是干什么的呢?绝不是用来做“?捋挤按、不顶不丢、引进落空”用的，而是要配合拳掌来狠狠地攻击敌手的。
　　
　　(四)防守型招式
　　太极拳术中的云手、弯弓射虎、玉女穿梭、闪通臂、搂膝拗步、倒转肱、提手、手挥琵琶、白鹤亮翅等等，都具有较强的防守作用，提手、手挥琵琶、白鹤亮翅、云手，都有拳击散打中向外隔挡作用。其中云手还相当于形意拳中鼍形招术。搂膝拗步的搂膝动作是个阿内隔挡的动作，是拳击、散打中非常重要的防护还击动作，也是形意拳杂式捶中的猫洗脸的动作。倒转肱是边打边退的防守招术。而弯弓射虎、玉女穿梭、闪通臂是散打中的架打招式，又是形意五行拳中的炮拳，如果将上架的手法稍放低一，点，则很容易形成拳击、散打的防守型直拳动作。这些招式中防中有打，以防为主，遇刚则柔化，遇柔而坚硬，在防守方面都优越于其他拳法。
　　
　　(五)步法移动的特点
　　在太极拳术中，像连珠炮、上步推掌、左推掌、右推掌、转身大捋、翻身二起、翻花舞袖、倒转肱，特别是孙式、武式太极拳中的跟步，完全如同拳击散打中的移动步法，它比形意拳、八卦掌的步法更灵活，而形意、八卦里都没有转身大捋化力借力招式，没有翻身二起、翻花舞袖、海底翻花的闪展腾挪的步法。太极拳移动方式进退自由敏捷、闪展腾挪、灵活多变，体现了“进必跟。退必随”的原则，便于巧用迂直之计，四两拨千斤。
　　凡是练过太极拳三五年以上的同仁，便容易理解我的拙见：用陈式五十六式竞赛套路里的左右掩手肱捶的招法，结合用孙式太极拳的进必跟、退必随的步法，并按照要领快速打出左右掩手肱拳，就出现了拳击、散打中主要的直拳攻击方式。如果将杨式、吴式太极拳中的打虎式、双峰贯耳改为先后用左右单手出拳，再配合孙式太极拳的跟步方法就成了拳击散打中的另一主要的摆拳(平钩拳)攻击方式，如果用陈式太极拳中的白猿献果招式，将手法改憾左右手先后打出去，步法运用孙式太极拳里的方法，则成了拳击散打中又一主要的钩拳(上钩拳)攻击方式。不要谈太极拳里别的招式，仅凭这些，只需将一个练过太极拳二年左右的人进行2—3周时间特殊训练，就能将一个推手高手打败，甚至能将练过多年其它武术套路的人打败，更能将一个没有任何武术基础的人打败。如果你能长期边练太极拳套路，边进行太极打手的训练，并结合太极拳术中其它招术、腿法、踢法、步法、拳打沙袋、掌插沙子、脚踢靶子。再结合对抗性的训练、实战训练，三五年后，你将可能把太极推手中的冠军打败，甚至可以、击败有相当水平的拳击、散打选手，绝对能打破“太极十年不出门”的说法，使太极拳技击胜过拳击。

.

[D_Glenn]

I kind of agree with Wuwei on this one.

I can see great arguments for and against using the term but either way, it's silly to read to much into it. It's really just an artifact of various Chinese speakers poor grasp of English. They took a shot in the dark, and educated guess at which verb to use and a lot of us native English speakers find the mistake kind of cute and that's why they sometimes use it.

After all, the correct verb in Chinese is "da"/打 which litereally means "to hit" or "strike". But since that's the verb used in Chinese for "play guitar" because you "strike" the stings. But more importantly you "play soccer" or most other sports. So since "da" is the Chinese verb for most sports and "play" is the English verb for most sports...people just make the logical jump to the wrong conclusion.

And seriously, even in English, play doesn't have to mean "fun, not serious". We play recordings and play music and "get played" so it's all good.

Read my first post on this thread.

Daquan is practice fighting, which would make Dashou to practice fighting using only arm techniques. If you practice fighting with a friend then it's just play fighting. But fighting is more about striking, wrestling, kicking, etc. but pushing is just the safest move to use as you place the hand on a body part and then issue force.

When using 'Dashou' to practice 'Kao' is where you really have to be careful as you don't know your own power and can really hurt the partner if you drop a shoulder strike into their chest. Practicing 'Zhou' (elbows) in a free format with a partner is not recommended and that's why you still see the 'elbow 2-person partner practices' and it's still a regimented form that's intact in most styles and lineages.

(Some styles have kicking only drills/ free format practices (like Tan Tui) but in Baguazhang the kicking isn't really done without the use of the arms so in our style it's just added into the San Shou (Free hands).)


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[Ron Panunto]

One of the applications In Yang Taijiquan's backhand strike (deflect downward) in "Step-up, Deflect downward, Parry and Push" is meant to break the opponents right forearm when he attempts a punch.

[Ron Panunto]

Sorry, should be Parry and Punch.