IMA Forms; With stops; ultra-slow; slow; fast, ultra fast?

[Andy_S]

There are various ways to practice Taiji forms. Some include:
(1) Do the form at stop and sink at completion of each technique, and hold for 2, 3 4 or 5 breathes, then continue;
(2) Train the form very, very slowly, to the point where it takes an hour to do a single form
(3) Do the form slow, to the point where it takes 15-20 minutes
(4) Do the form faster, to the point where it takes 5-7 minutes
(5) Do the form really fast (ie like Shaolin forms) in a minute or two

(For reference, I come from Chen style; our yilu forms are 75 - laojia- and 83 - xinjia - moves.)

I have never officially "formally learned" method (2). I know some people - Omar and Moling, for example - who do, however do these very, very slow forms and wonder if there is a specific method to it...? I have also never officially learned number (5) for yilu - though of course, the Chen Paochoi forms include a lot of fast movements, and the weapons forms (except for straight sword) are all fast.

I used to think that ultra-slow was the traditional way, but then learned that Chen Fake surprised a group of Wu Taiji students when he first arrived in Beijing by doing his form in just a few minutes (they had literally bought their lunches with them). And in the oldest film we have of Taiji (the Wu style guy in the uniform and the riding boots from, I think, the early 1930s) he does his form pretty fast - very much at the pace the Zhaobao people do their forms. And Zhaobao is the last/latest of the traditional styles to have come out in public. As a reference, my teacher, Chen Xiaoxing, tends to do it at a fairly quick clip - yilu in about 7-8 minutes.

Of all the MA, Taiji is most characterized by its slow forms. What are your thoughts on training speed? What are the pros and cons to different speeds of form perforrmance?

[Ian]

What's the point of practicing at sloth pace, as opposed to just slow enough to ingrain sequencing, coordination, and balance?

[middleway]

Ian,

IMO super slow allows you to recognize origination point (pushing on the floor etc) and the pulling pushing of body structures much more finely. Also it places 'unusual' load on the joints, muscles and fascia stimulating grown to cater for that unusual load. Using a weight or working quickly wont achieve anything in that regard as it will illicit a muscular contraction response for protection.

Andy,

Ref the ways to do the form. I practice 2 forms now. Yang 24 and one Serge taught. I learnt the Old yang form but its wayyyy too long for me. The 24 when done with old style mechanics has everything i need and I can just train the elements of it with deep focus.

As i said in another thread i don't tend to train forms much anymore, preferring the snippets and loops from the style rather than a big long string of them. That said there are a few ways i do train the form now that i find useful.

1) Agility training. I do the form with 'broken rythm' stepping ... this is medium speed, higher stance method and is non standard to look at.
2) evasion training. I do the form with the intent that an attack is always coming, linked to the broken rythm form it helps with movement skill, evasion and an illusive nature.
3) Hunter training. I do the form with the intent to dominate similar to that of Xing Yi again helps with movement but also forward pressure and attack strategy.
3) Super slow with minimum of 2 direction pressures happening during movement. for the reason stated above.

Ta muchly.

[cloudz]

What's the point of practicing at sloth pace, as opposed to just slow enough to ingrain sequencing, coordination, and balance?

It can be a similar point to practicing zhuang, in this case moving zhuang. D Glenn writes some good stuff about this. And also what Chris said is what it's about In that that's the sort of specifics you might experience and pick up on. But in the broader sense from a taiji viewpoint (which I share in this regard) essentially solo form practice is to 'know yourself' and partner practice is to 'know others'. Where the first also lends itself to the second. The classics talk about knowing the feet, then the inches and on and on in smaller and smaller increments don't they? You don't achieve such ends (deep experiential knowledge of ones body and all the inherent dynamics etc.) only running through the form in 8-10 minutes or whatever. Which is really no different to the point Chris was making.

The theory or thinking behind it may go something like this; The smaller and smaller increments you come to know is deeper and deeper refinement, the slower you go the finer/shorter the increments you will come to know, command and understand. I think this might also bleed into the understanding of what is expressed by the saying: movement in stillness and stillness in motion.

However to convince yourself what's been said has any merit, you'll probably just have to try to experience it for yourself. That is the knowing/ experiencing of smaller and smaller increments. the slower the movement the smaller the increment you can discern, feel, know and learn something from experientially etc.

[cloudz]

1) Agility training. I do the form with 'broken rythm' stepping ... this is medium speed, higher stance method and is non standard to look at.
2) evasion training. I do the form with the intent that an attack is always coming, linked to the broken rythm form it helps with movement skill, evasion and an illusive nature.
3) Hunter training. I do the form with the intent to dominate similar to that of Xing Yi again helps with movement but also forward pressure and attack strategy.
3) Super slow with minimum of 2 direction pressures happening during movement. for the reason stated above.

Ta muchly.

[middleway]

solo form practice is to 'know yourself' and partner practice is to 'know others'.

Well now that's an awesome way of putting it and no mistake! I think i will be using that when someone asks about solo training

[cloudz]

Chris, I almost forgot: make it so I get that hoodie right, you know the one on facebook bro..
I shared the page cos I'd just love to get my hands on it, you can make it happen buddy!

[middleway]

check pm

[MaartenSFS]

I think that the speed depends on your stage of development (in Taiji). I do the form (Xinjia Yilu, we don't learn Laojia) very slow and low twice and this takes me a little over an hour. The second time is slightly faster than the first and I sometimes do a little Fajin. The point is to perfect the movements, improve rooting (leg strength, balance), sink the hips, relax the body (harder to do at a slower pace!), etc.

Ma Hong added a move from Erlu (Fengsao Meihua) at the end of Yilu so that you start back at Jingang Daozui (not "dui", according to my teacher) and begin a repetition without changing the pace.

Then after the second time I go straight into Erlu in the same way. My goal is to do two Yilu and two Erlu in succession as soon as I finish studying the second half of Erlu in about a month and then work up to two slow Yilu, three Erlu, and one fast Yilu without stopping and all low. The fast Yilu does some movements different to slow and adds some jumping movements. After I build up my Jibengong and my movements all feel better I plan to heighten and speed up my first Yilu and slow down my second Yilu (whilst still keeping Fajin).

Before I began learning Erlu I would run through three Yilu, the first two slow and the third fast. One time I almost fell asleep during the second repetition and clocked myself at over two hours. My teacher says that after a while the speed of the forms matter less and the amount of continuous time is more important. Between two and three hours is a good goal.

Holding the postures is something that I will intermittently practise in future, but haven't gotten into yet. Besides the form I also have other Jibengong, Fajin, etc. to do...

[pennsooner]

For what its worth, my teacher told me that when TaiChi was used a lot for fighting "it looked like Baji".

[Peacedog]

Forms were originally used to train key concepts that correspond to specific forms of development.

So you could train many different ways and this also allowed to focus on training as needed by an individual vice a group. Examples include: slow, fast, heavy, chi circulation form, fah jing form, light, low, hard, soft, etc.

Most teachers don't teach this stuff for two reasons: one, it takes a lot of effort as you have to make dozens of corrections to get the form right; and two, as a way of maintaining their position.

The same can be said of jibengung.

[bailewen]

. I know some people - Omar and Moling, for example - who do, however do these very, very slow forms and wonder if there is a specific method to it...?

It's late here and I don't have the time or energy to try and explain my thought on this in depth but the short answer is that it has to to with the difference between 锻炼/"duan lian" and 练功/"lian gong" ie. "physical training" vs. "cultivation".

That's about all I have time/energy for, for now.

[johnwang]

How slow should you train? IMO, "1 move = 1 inhale or 1 exhale" is the slowest speed that you should train. If you make your move to be more than 1 inhale or 1 exhale time, you start to develop bad habit for combat. In combat, you should not change from inhale to exhale (or the other way around) in the middle of your single move.

In slow speed training, your body speed should depend on your breathing speed (not the other way around). If you just finish 4 miles fast running, when you do slow speed move that you force your breathing to be the same speed as your body speed, you will hurt yourself and it's bad for your "health".

If you just train for "health", you may not care about breath and body movement coordination. If you train for "combat", there is a slow speed training limitation that you should not violate. Of course I'm not talking about "static" ZZ but dynamic body movement here.