Yang family (Banhou) fast frame (kuaiquan)

[stephen yan]

This is the fast frame as passed down by Yang Banhou, who told his disciples to have received it from Yang Luchan.
This exact same frame was then passed down to Shaohou as "Banhou's fast frame" while Shaohou himself also created *his* fast frame - so at Shaohou's generation two fast frames were known and practiced.

FYI

YM

太極拳快架
　　
預備勢、起勢、攬雀尾、單鞭、提手上勢、白鶴亮翅、左摟膝拗步、手揮琵琶、左右摟膝拗步、手揮琵琶、左摟膝拗步、進步搬攔捶、如封似閉、十字手、收勢、起勢、攬雀尾、單鞭、古樹盤根、肘底看捶、左倒攆猴、轉身左按、轉身右按、右倒攆猴、轉身右按、轉身左按、斜飛勢、提手上勢、白鶴亮翅、左摟膝拗步、童子抱球、海底針、扇通背、轉身撇身捶、搬攔捶、上步攬雀尾、單鞭、小雲手、單鞭、高探馬、左右分腳、轉身蹬腳、踐步栽捶、翻身二起、左打虎勢、右打虎勢、右蹬腳、右雙峰貫耳、左雙峰貫耳、轉身右按、左按、轉身右蹬腳、左蹬腳、搬攔捶、如封似閉、十字手、收勢、起勢、攬雀尾、斜單鞭、左右野馬分鬃、攬雀尾、單鞭、玉女穿梭、攬雀尾、單鞭、中雲手、單鞭、下勢、左右金雞獨立、左倒攆猴、右插手、右倒攆猴、左插手、左倒攆猴、右插手、斜飛勢、提手上勢、白鶴亮翅、左摟膝拗步、海底針、扇通背、轉身白蛇吐信、搬攔捶、上步攬雀尾、單鞭、大雲手、單鞭、高探馬帶穿掌、單擺蓮、進步指襠捶、上步攬雀尾、單鞭、下勢、上步七星、退步跨虎、跨虎蹬山、古樹盤根、雙擺蓮、彎弓射虎、搬攔捶、如封似閉、十字手、披身合太極。

only brainless people will think and believe that a fast form which made yang l c invincible needed to be changed or recreated! so yang ban hou , wu quan you ,wu jian quan , yang shao hou ,ma yue liang ect wouldn't feel the need to change or recreat the original fast from(also only dummkopf and foolish people will think doing many defferent hand forms will make him good ,which will make real martial artists laugh) , only for other purposes like a need for health and popularization(so the slow form created) or for morden day busy life (so the modefied form created).

Yong Nian had lots of new claimes which never claimed before even when Fu zhong wen was alive ,they claimed many yang l c , yang b h and yang s h's forms , just like the wu-hao taiji chairman xue nayin's claime which says " they had other four secreat forms including wu -hao cannon fist '"...after all it was proved just a lie , he togather with his teacher made up , it is called "a need for nowday's market", so as YM'S list of forms that he found in YONG NIAN and Y M use them as his evidences while blindly ignor yang style taiji successor's written and oral records .look at the vid YM post on , no shen fa ,no liuhe ,no .. yongnian's claims has little credibility ,has never been trusted by serious tai ji history researchers but low intelligent ones

[Doc Stier]

Wow! A great deal of profound thought must have gone into double posting the same crap on two different threads.

How creative!



Doc

[Taijikid]

Nice find! Doc!!

[Yuen-Ming]

This your lineage too?

I don't practice in any of these lines

YM

[Andy_S]

Stephen:

SNIP
only brainless people will think and believe that a fast form which made yang l c invincible needed to be changed or recreated!
SNIP

But isn't this your point?

That the original Chen Chanxing form WAS changed (by Chen Youben) and Yang Lu'chan's form(s) was/were also changed by subsequent generations? And that the only original Yang LC form has been preserved by the Wu Family in its Fast Set?

Now, I agree that there are strong traditions of secrecy, opacity and shear bullshit in many CMA. I also believe that some forms were simplified and some good stuff left out. But of the many post Chen Chanxing and Yang Luchan-generation masters - were these masters "brainless," did they have something valuable to add, or were they just dumbing down and hiding the real deal?

[GrahamB]

Re: original vid. It does look like some Yang moves, just speeded up. I like the rather odd "pogo" that he does at .07. Could anybody comment on why he might be doing it?

[Yuen-Ming]

only brainless people will think and believe that a fast form which made yang l c invincible needed to be changed or recreated!

It's *interesting* to hear such a logic from someone with a scientific background. If that was the case all governments are wasting their money on new technological weapons, we should be all going to war with the "great weapons of the past": woodden sticks and throwing stones.
I am even more impressed and worried that you might apply this logic into your profession, and maybe treat your patients with "the great methods" of medicine of the 18 century. They also "don't need to be changed or recreated".

Yong Nian had lots of new claimes which never claimed before even when Fu zhong wen was alive

I am afraid you have to go back to your old issues of Wuhun, Qingwu, Wudang magazines and sort out all articles by the person in the video (Jia Anshu) and others who were published well before Fu Zhongwen passed away (1994).

I am also *curious* as to your quoting Fu Zhongwen as a reference to your thesis when he was one of those who would take them to trash. He was quoted various times for saying "Yang style Taijiquan from its creation by Yang Luchan down to Banhou, Jianhou down to Yang Chengfu who standardized it in his late years, always had only ONE LARGE FRAME. There is no second (other) set, even more there is no middle frame or small frame". [end quote].
Funny that it's YOU who bring up Fu Zhongwen to support your thesis of the *original_secret_set_that_only_I_know*.

yongnian's claims has little credibility ,has never been trusted by serious tai ji history researchers but low intelligent ones

Let's hear some names of the "serious researchers", would you name some ?

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

Re: original vid. It does look like some Yang moves, just speeded up. I like the rather odd "pogo" that he does at .07. Could anybody comment on why he might be doing it?

That's one of the trademarks of Banhou's fast frame.
The set has three closings, of which two inside (during) the form. After the two closing there is a "jump" which - I am told - is an evolution/transformation of the 'mortar pounding' of Chen style.
If you watch better pratictioners than the one in the video you will see that it is not a jump. They 'throw' the weight toward the floor which 'bounces' back (at a good level there is barely any leg bending).

Banhou also transmitted three different sets of Paochui, different from what we see now from Chen people.
I have just uploaded one of them - the 13 ways set - for your viewing pleasure.



Best

YM

[Michael]

Why, our of curiousity, are the other videos you have for private viewing only?

Yes, that's really odd considering how open and forthcoming CMA people are about sharing information with total strangers.

[/sarcasm]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[GrahamB]

That new video was better.

[stephen yan]

Stephen:

SNIP
only brainless people will think and believe that a fast form which made yang l c invincible needed to be changed or recreated!
SNIP

But isn't this your point?

That the original Chen Chanxing form WAS changed (by Chen Youben) and Yang Lu'chan's form(s) was/were also changed by subsequent generations? And that the only original Yang LC form has been preserved by the Wu Family in its Fast Set?

Now, I agree that there are strong traditions of secrecy, opacity and shear bullshit in many CMA. I also believe that some forms were simplified and some good stuff left out. But of the many post Chen Chanxing and Yang Luchan-generation masters - were these masters "brainless," did they have something valuable to add, or were they just dumbing down and hiding the real deal?

Hi , Andy , i always said Chen Chanxing form WAS same as Yang Lu'chan's form , and chen c x's form was passed down from his 9th generation ancester chen w t ,and chen w t's form was passed to him by taoist Dong b q and Jiang Fa ,and Dong b q ,Jiang f 's form (including Bo gong )was passed to them by Wang zhong yue ; WANG Z Y's form was passed to him by a travelling taoist with his daughter who lived in a taoist temple near little wang village in shan xi whom were originally from yun nan and was lineage successor of the great taoist ZHANG SAN FONG,whom lived from yuan to early ming dynasty.when the form (13 posture or fast form) passed all the way to yang l c ,yang b h , wu q y ,wu j q , yang s h and later generation ma yue liang , tian z l , wu tu nan .. no body felt the need to change apart from wu t n whom changed a bit(he didn't learn long time from yang s h), Li family's tree and quan pu in early qing recorded down only one hand form and the form movments names which match ma y l 's fast form names 99%.,that is why chen c x's form was also called lao jia(old from) .
this original form was easy to be lost as no. 1 reason was conservativness;2nd ,if the master felt you are not ready ,they wouldn't teach . thus happened especially after 1914 when slow forms created and was treated as a foundation before learning fast form . before 1914 ,only one form (fast form)and some nei gong(apart from yang j h's middle frame form),so you eigher got taught or not taught ,as it only had one form. after slow form created , then the masters somehow had an excuse for not teaching the fast form which was "you are not ready yet" for their students.that was why tian zhao lin's line also lost , yang shao hou's other students also lost , even wu tu nan's student didn't learn wu t n's fast form,it is lost too. so fast form has been easy lost or changed , but master ma y l had been very strict in his life , i trust he wouldn't change the fast form that was passed to by wu j q , and wu j q, wu q y wouldn't feel the need to change the fast form from yang l c and yang b h(those people always said zhang s f was the founder of the form),ma's Tai ji SKILL also proved it.

as to chen you beng , i believe that the situation is defferent as to why he created new form(called new 13 posture).firstly ,he recreated the form not for the health reason like yang and wu did in 1914. he recreated the form was still for fighting purpose. 2ndly, he was confused with all the rest of chen village's open hand forms were winding like silk and only the taoist 13 posture doesn't do the winding( as he might not realise the rest was from taong bei or tong bei canquan , just like he wasn't told their art was learned from Dong b q. at that time they only knew had something to do with Jiang FA), SO chen y b descided to use tong bei principle s to recreat the original 13 posture( while chen w t and his cousins had used principles of 13 posture to change 4 short sets of tong bei), so chen y b wasn't belong to the group as i said "brainless", he was only confused . actually ,from the taoist from yun nan to chen c x to yang l c , yang b h ,wu q y , wu j q ,y s h ,ma y l ect no one belongs to that group as none of them felt the need to change or recreat the original taoist 13 posture (fast form), only the people whom think those masters needed to change or recreat belongs to that group.

[stephen yan]

Ym wrote: It's *interesting* to hear such a logic from someone with a scientific background. If that was the case all governments are wasting their money on new technological weapons, we should be all going to war with the "great weapons of the past": woodden sticks and throwing stones.

ming and qing dynasty was the peak of CMA for cold weapeons , don't confuse yourself with morden war.

[stephen yan]

YM wrote :
I am afraid you have to go back to your old issues of Wuhun, Qingwu, Wudang magazines and sort out all articles by the person in the video (Jia Anshu) and others who were published well before Fu Zhongwen passed away (1994).

I am also *curious* as to your quoting Fu Zhongwen as a reference to your thesis when he was one of those who would take them to trash. He was quoted various times for saying "Yang style Taijiquan from its creation by Yang Luchan down to Banhou, Jianhou down to Yang Chengfu who standardized it in his late years, always had only ONE LARGE FRAME. There is no second (other) set, even more there is no middle frame or small frame". [end quote].
Funny that it's YOU who bring up Fu Zhongwen to support your thesis of the *original_secret_set_that_only_I_know*.

Jia Anshu was not invited for the new researcher's result of taiji history which 8 people invovled for the new book's publishing in shan xi . suggest you to read tian zhao lin's web site again.

[Doc Stier]

stephen yan wrote: "Jia Anshu was not invited for the new researcher's result of taiji history which 8 people invovled for the new book's publishing in shan xi." Yada yada yada blah blah blah!



Just another broken recording of the same old same old....!

And you still haven't revealed who these supposedly 'serious researchers' are, aside from self-proclaiming yourself as such of course, or why they should be granted any credibility, particularly since the book is to be published in China, where you yourself stated that the environment for fairness and accuracy to such a project is woefully antagonistic.

In fact, I would venture to guess that if they are in league with you, they must have the same agenda priorities that you do, or other known political agendas, which have already been obviously identified several times now...on three different threads!

Sheesh!

Doc

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Be good Stephen if you can post in Chinese the full "Li family quan pu" so readers can compare with other writings from similar time period, otherwise there is not much point quoting that as a source as there is nothing to go by. I know it is not that much of a secret any more since it was revealed to the public a few years ago.

JB