Yang family (Banhou) fast frame (kuaiquan)

[Yuen-Ming]

Be good Stephen if you can post in Chinese the full "Li family quan pu" so readers can compare with other writings from similar time period

DZQ,

most of this Li family material is forged - in my opinion - so simply taking it out of context without being able to examine its background is useless.
Many of the recent chinese claims are made up to make money. Some are based on a very tiny existing evidence which however is abbellished with lots of fantastic "historical" records.

Here is the quanpu, in any case

十三势拳

揽雀尾、单鞭、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、手挥琵琶、搬揽捶、如封似闭、抱虎归山、揽雀尾、肘底看捶、倒辇猴、斜飞势、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、海底针、扇通臂、撇身捶、卸步搬揽捶、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、云手、高探马、左右分脚、转身蹬脚、进步栽捶、翻身撇身捶、反身二起脚、双风贯耳、披身踢脚、转身蹬脚、斜单鞭、野马分鬃、玉女穿梭、单鞭、云手、下势、金鸡独立、倒辇猴、斜飞势、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、海底针、扇通臂、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、云手、高探马、十字摆莲、指裆捶、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、下势、上步七星、退步跨虎、转脚摆莲、弯弓射虎、上步揽雀尾，合太极。

YM

[Andy_S]

Stephen:

If other Taiji does not have silk-reeling/spiralling movements - which, IME, also aid in compression and expansion - what is their method of movement? Straight lines? (I have only ever studies Chen style, so am unfamiliar with other styles...

Also, what Tongbei are we talking as the origin of (some lines of) Chen Taiji? The modern Tongbei - with its short stances and its long, swinging arm motions - seems entirely unrelated.

TIA

YM:

Very interesting set that last one you posted, thanks. It seems to be drilling two moves - side stamp kick and the rather odd leaning down to the side (a throw?) move that is usually only seen in Wu Taiji - plus low sweeps and chest opening-closing. Do you know what the other sets main moves consist of?

Also, what is your opinion as to the legitimacy of this form? (ie is this really a Yang BH set?)

TIA

[Yuen-Ming]

YM:

Very interesting set that last one you posted, thanks. It seems to be drilling two moves - side stamp kick and the rather odd leaning down to the side (a throw?) move that is usually only seen in Wu Taiji - plus low sweeps and chest opening-closing. Do you know what the other sets main moves consist of?

Also, what is your opinion as to the legitimacy of this form? (ie is this really a Yang BH set?)

TIA

I'll try to upload the other Paochui sets, hopefully the Jia family won't get mad at me
They are of course Banhou stuff, they are preserved exactly in the same way in Shaohou's lineage nowadays

YM

[stephen yan]

Be good Stephen if you can post in Chinese the full "Li family quan pu" so readers can compare with other writings from similar time period

DZQ,

most of this Li family material is forged - in my opinion - so simply taking it out of context without being able to examine its background is useless.
Many of the recent chinese claims are made up to make money. Some are based on a very tiny existing evidence which however is abbellished with lots of fantastic "historical" records.

Here is the quanpu, in any case

十三势拳

揽雀尾、单鞭、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、手挥琵琶、搬揽捶、如封似闭、抱虎归山、揽雀尾、肘底看捶、倒辇猴、斜飞势、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、海底针、扇通臂、撇身捶、卸步搬揽捶、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、云手、高探马、左右分脚、转身蹬脚、进步栽捶、翻身撇身捶、反身二起脚、双风贯耳、披身踢脚、转身蹬脚、斜单鞭、野马分鬃、玉女穿梭、单鞭、云手、下势、金鸡独立、倒辇猴、斜飞势、提手上势、白鹅亮翅、搂膝拗步、海底针、扇通臂、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、云手、高探马、十字摆莲、指裆捶、上势揽雀尾、单鞭、下势、上步七星、退步跨虎、转脚摆莲、弯弓射虎、上步揽雀尾，合太极。

YM

YM,
IT is foolish to say WHAT YOU SAID without being there and looked at quan pu and family tree book. LI's family tree book and quan pu also be identified by top ming historian professor wang xin ya of henan university. apart from this , several wang bao qiang pu also said similar things . most content is in my website :www. tai-chi .co .nz

i also post them in last three threads , if the guys knows chinese they have already read them ,for the guys don't read chinese , it doesn't matter how many times you post them on ,it doesn't mean a thing to them . li and wang 's family tree books and quan and qiang pu has much more than just the 13 posture names , it including lineage ect ,much more.

plus you said that you have seen QIming xuan's material other than cheng tian huong ,where are they?
what Jia claimed is similar to wu- hao xue na yin's cliam :2 sets of cannon fist , fast form ect. master zhao you bin from yong nian never agreed with JIA'S claim. it is most likely stimulated by master ma yue liang 's fast form demonstration in yongnian in early 1990s,which after that , Jia and wu- hao xue started to claim fast form , paochui ect which made up to attract fools.
if YM believes in Jia , then was tian zhao lin telling lies ?

if

[stephen yan]

Andy wrote:
Stephen:

If other Taiji does not have silk-reeling/spiralling movements - which, IME, also aid in compression and expansion - what is their method of movement? Straight lines? (I have only ever studies Chen style, so am unfamiliar with other styles...

Also, what Tongbei are we talking as the origin of (some lines of) Chen Taiji? The modern Tongbei - with its short stances and its long, swinging arm motions - seems entirely unrelated.

Hi Andy , it is a long topic. to cut it short , tong bei was founded by DONG CHEN in late ming(jia qing )and silk-reeling/spiralling is the soul of his art , of his branch even called their tong bei as "ting bei silk-reeling/spiralling fist".
chen wang ting and his cousins li zhong and li xing all learned 13 posture , tong bei system(within the system , it had 108 tong bei long fist , pao chui ect) and chun qiu da dao from , which in both hand writing chen village quan pu by chen 15th generation chen zhong shen and 16th generation chen xin all recorded(very interesting thing is that those two hand written quan pu had no mention a word of tai ji). please also check the taiji classics that no mention the word "silk-reeling/spiralling 缠丝'" at all . because 13 posture and tong bei was two defferent system even though they were founded by all taoist but defferent founders.13 posture doesn't do "winding body like winding silk".

[Yuen-Ming]

IT is foolish to say WHAT YOU SAID without being there and looked at quan pu and family tree book.

Have you done that ?
And how do you know I haven't done so ?

plus you said that you have seen QIming xuan's material other than cheng tian huong ,where are they?

Shall I give references to somebody who claim to be Cheng Tin Hung's disciple and yet say that "he has never seen the name Qi Minxuan in his *research*" when ANYBODY who has read Cheng's books would have seen them ? When it is available even on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Tai_Chi_Chuan ?!?
How do you explain this, please ?

master zhao you bin from yong nian never agreed with JIA'S claim.

Should I infer that he is one of the "taiji researcher's" list we are waiting for you ?

it is most likely stimulated by master ma yue liang 's fast form demonstration in yongnian in early 1990s,which after that , Jia and wu- hao xue started to claim fast form , paochui ect which made up to attract fools.

I am afraid the sets were there in the 80ies when I saw them.

if YM believes in Jia , then was tian zhao lin telling lies ?

When did you spoke to him and about what ?
Tian Zhaolin HAD a fast frame, that has been openly demonstrated by his son, which is nothing like Ma's.

Stephen, I really find it hard to follow what you say.
If you only stopped for a moment vomiting unconnected information in each and every post people might get a few decent things from what you say, as you say some interesting things here and there. The problem, as I see it, is that you pour (vomit) continuosly without end calling everybody who doesn't agree with you a lier or a brainless foolish and you mix a few and scattered facts with lots of unfounded and senseless opinions.
It is really too tough to discern between the facts and the opinions for those not really deep into this material, hopefully this is not your goal ...

YM

[stephen yan]

IT is foolish to say WHAT YOU SAID without being there and looked at quan pu and family tree book.

Have you done that ?
And how do you know I haven't done so ?

plus you said that you have seen QIming xuan's material other than cheng tian huong ,where are they?

Shall I give references to somebody who claim to be Cheng Tin Hung's disciple and yet say that "he has never seen the name Qi Minxuan in his *research*" when ANYBODY who has read Cheng's books would have seen them ? When it is available even on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Tai_Chi_Chuan ?!?
How do you explain this, please ?

master zhao you bin from yong nian never agreed with JIA'S claim.

Should I infer that he is one of the "taiji researcher's" list we are waiting for you ?

it is most likely stimulated by master ma yue liang 's fast form demonstration in yongnian in early 1990s,which after that , Jia and wu- hao xue started to claim fast form , paochui ect which made up to attract fools.

I am afraid the sets were there in the 80ies when I saw them.

if YM believes in Jia , then was tian zhao lin telling lies ?

When did you spoke to him and about what ?
Tian Zhaolin HAD a fast frame, that has been openly demonstrated by his son, which is nothing like Ma's.

Stephen, I really find it hard to follow what you say.
If you only stopped for a moment vomiting unconnected information in each and every post people might get a few decent things from what you say, as you say some interesting things here and there. The problem, as I see it, is that you pour (vomit) continuosly without end calling everybody who doesn't agree with you a lier or a brainless foolish and you mix a few and scattered facts with lots of unfounded and senseless opinions.
It is really too tough to discern between the facts and the opinions for those not really deep into this material, hopefully this is not your goal ...

YM

of course i did.
after all you read about qi ming xuan from master cheng tian huang's lineage . you clear know that what i said "not come cross in my resarch" meant that apart from master cheng tian hung's lineage . so you don't actualy have read any information about qi ming xuan apart from master cheng's lineage's saying ,why then you made your claim sounded defferently ?

you can say those sets you saw in late 1970s' ,i won't be surprised as the words came from your mouth .

check tian zhao lin's site again , even tian's son admit he changed the fast form as following his defferent stage's understanding . tian's some only did a very short part of it , even his children havn't seen him doing the whole form , how could you? wu t n 's yang s h's fast form can be used as one of the evidences that ma's fast form was the original yang l c's one.

so you deny zhao y b's saying .one of the researchers is jing ren ling whom is ye da mi's disciple.

[Yuen-Ming]

you can say those sets you saw in late 1970s' ,i won't be surprised as the words came from your mouth.

A total joke who call others liers, you are even worst than I expected after reading your *scholarly* articles in chinese.

Well, I guess most here have had the chance to know you for what you are - already.

Again, take care

YM

[stephen yan]

you can say those sets you saw in late 1970s' ,i won't be surprised as the words came from your mouth.

A total joke who call others liers, you are even worst than I expected after reading your *scholarly* articles in chinese.

Well, I guess most here have had the chance to know you for what you are - already.

Again, take care

YM

take easy while reading my articles in chinese as many of them haven't had a chance to put on my web site yet , don't get too upset

cheers