Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[Niall Keane]

At that point pf BKTS the force has been applied, it has already gone from central and a rear stance to the forward stance and shpuld be "leaning" in issuing force. There is no way to argue force should be withheld at that point. tai chi is like the great river surging and flowing without interuption and all, it does not transfer weight and finish movement and only after wards express power. That would be martially wrong! The transformation generates the power, yin to yang, CMC seems all Yin, a lopsided chuan!

Practicing movements programs the nervous system, practice errors and they will manifest when it counts!

Interpretation has nothing to do with it! it is quite evident that CMC is on his own with the vertical back and bent knee when applying force in form, now either the whole world is mad or the individual is?

[wayne hansen]

As someone who has trained both wu(cth) and yang(cmc) for over 3 decades I. The final analysis I see little difference it is just how two men at differing times looked at the same subject.

[johnwang]

Some TCMA system takes the "body in a straight line" training to the extreme. IMO, it's a good exercise even just for "health". If you can still do this when you are 80 years old, your body will be as health as a 20 years old.

TCMA training is not suppose to be "comfortable". Why not just push yourself a bit harder?



Just find another Aikido clip with body alignment.

[Steve James]

There is no way to argue force should be withheld at that point.

At that point in the photo, you mean. Of course, if his force is being issued at that point, the application is different. But, my point is only that he had a reason to do the form the way he did. You saw that he "leaned" when applying it.

Afa "straight back," here's another example from another style:


@Wayne,

The final analysis I see little difference it is just how two men at differing times looked at the same subject.

I'm pretty sure they saw it that way, too. YCF and WCC traveled together (from the Nanjing Academy to Shanghai) and taught at the same time.

[windwalker]

Now imagine some unknown aul-lad from Galway posted up stuff like that where his students go flying, can you hand on heart really say you would take it seriously???

The teacher is not some unknown nor are the other masters historical and modern who can do the same things.

Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞, 1932 – ), from Beijing City, was a disciple of the famous Wu Style Taijiquan master, Wang Peisheng (王培生, 1919 – 2004). Gao is the executive vice president of Beijing Wu Style Taijiquan Association, professor of Chinese Medicine Taiji Martial Arts Institute and consultant of various Taijiquan associations all across China. Gao Zhuangfei has published a Taijiquan book, numerous Taijiquan articles at various martial arts magazines and three series of Wu Style Taijiquan Instructional dvds.

Now imagine some unknown aul-lad from Galway posted up stuff like that where his students go flying,

I'm sure if they could do it, like

they would those that cant don't, tend to dismiss it.

IMO the similarities between Wu and Yang style taiji is really dependent on yang family line that is being discussed,



for those that feel, the more upright straight postures are some how easier, IME, it really depends on what set of movement dynamics one follows.
the pictures with the lines show one set, what the teachers talk about and demo show another set. Thinking one is straight and being straight is not always the same

[taiwandeutscher]

Of course, in other lineages of Yang TJQ, there is the upright body as well.

I do Wang Zihe 108 (YCF, Lü Dianchen) and Xiong Yanghe 111 (many early influences, more Yang Jinahou), and all teach upright body and never such a straight back leg.

When Yang Zhenduo was over here in TW promoting that strechted back leg, everybody just laughed, and his best phs students didn't win one match in TW.

[dspyrido]

So far wu vs yang but lets break things up. Anyone care to shed light on how they compare to hao/wu-hao? For those who have practised or experienced all the above which would you prefer? Why?

I wont ask about Sun unless this post reaches another 5 more pages.

Also to throw it out there (as a non-tc guy) I assume the flavor is irrelevant and the student/instructor everything but I'm curious if you think otherwise why one might be better than the other.

[johnwang]

why one might be better than the other.

Let's just talk about this in more general TCMA concept than just for the Taiji concept only.

When you lean,

- you have farther reach.
- your gravity will pull you forward and give you the momentum that you need.

This clip has less leaning. It's not too hard to develop this. This is considered as the beginner level training.



This clip has more leaning. It's a bit harder to develop this. You will need "dynamic rooting", the ability to regain your rooting back after you have lost it "intentionally". This is considered as more advanced training.

[Bao]

So far wu vs yang but lets break things up. Anyone care to shed light on how they compare to hao/wu-hao?
I wont ask about Sun unless this post reaches another 5 more pages.

I suppose you mean in terms of leaning, as that was the subject discussed?

Wu/Hao and Sun styles use higher stances so the leaning will not be as much pronounced as if you use a lower stance work.

In terms of frame, the Old Wu was much more flexible than standardized Hao, there were many different variations of forms and exercises. I like Hao because of it's very strict frame, but otoh I think that you need to loose up frame a bit and understand different kinds of frame work.

In the clips below, you can see quite a straight stance, but there's still leaning and there's a straight line from the back foot up through the back.

Old wu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHRgnQmo3a4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh2siPvCPo0
Hao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvAFPD8x4E
Here you can see slight leaning, but if you look at other, more recent clips from Hao style, you can see that many people use a completely upright stance.

Sun Style
Sun Lutang learned Wu style before it was standardized as Hao. We should assume that there was more flexibility of frame and posture of the style that SLT learned and frankly, I am quite sure that he taught a more flexible frame work than what is shown in Sun Style today. There are considerably big differencies if you look at his students.

Here you have disciple Wang Xikui, you can see that he have a quite pronounced lean in the movements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds

But if you look at the Sun Jian lineage, most of the studenst stand pretty much straight up. You can see a slight lean if you look at Sun Jianyun, but if you look at her students, as Tim Cartmell for instance, many of them use a completely upright stance.

I don't like modern Hao very much and I don't like the Sun Jianyun lineage (and the Sun Tai Chi from Cartmell especially). There's no use of the spine at all. In tai chi there's a saying that strength should come from the back....
If you don't use form as the same way as you fight, there's no point of practicing form in a martial context.

Also to throw it out there (as a non-tc guy) I assume the flavor is irrelevant and the student/instructor everything but I'm curious if you think otherwise why one might be better than the other.

IMHO, flavor is most relevant, But flavor comes naturally from a long time of practice. I see the point of teaching beginners to stand straight and having a higher stance. That makes sense when you learn a form. There are so many details of both movements and shenfa so it's hard to remember everything at once. And then we have to grow roots and take care of our knees. Leaning is pointless if you don't know about rooting and it's dangerous for your knees if you don't develop the functional strength. Flavor and leaning should come naturally as you progress and as you transform your teachers art into your own art.

[johnwang]

We should not use "old" teacher's posture as standard. We all know that when we get old, we will have "老人架 (Lao Ren Jia) - old man posture". Our back may not be able to be straight and that head, back, ... straight line may not be perfect.

[GrahamB]

I've come to the conclusion that it's just utterly bizarre to look at solo forms and decide if they're correct or not for fighting... why not look at fighting?

I think that just about the only sensible thing to say on the subject is that...

If I was wrestling/grappling then I'd want to be like this:



If I'm boxing I want to look like this:



and if I'm doing zhan zhuang then I want to look like this:



Unfortunately most of the time I look like this:

[Niall Keane]

double post

[Niall Keane]

Now imagine some unknown aul-lad from Galway posted up stuff like that where his students go flying, can you hand on heart really say you would take it seriously???

The teacher is not some unknown nor are the other masters historical and modern who can do the same things.

Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞, 1932 – ), from Beijing City, was a disciple of the famous Wu Style Taijiquan master, Wang Peisheng (王培生, 1919 – 2004). Gao is the executive vice president of Beijing Wu Style Taijiquan Association, professor of Chinese Medicine Taiji Martial Arts Institute and consultant of various Taijiquan associations all across China. Gao Zhuangfei has published a Taijiquan book, numerous Taijiquan articles at various martial arts magazines and three series of Wu Style Taijiquan Instructional dvds.

Now imagine some unknown aul-lad from Galway posted up stuff like that where his students go flying,

I'm sure if they could do it, like

they would those that cant don't, tend to dismiss it.

Wow.... it gets even worse! Look , but dress it up how you like to explain the “magic” throwing of (always overly compliant) students (never opponents!) the fact is with eyes to see, the kind of eyes serious martial artists should have, ones that notice “tells”, the micro movement that precedes action, it is easy to recognise what is “fake”, and what you have posted so far is so fake even an unseasoned beginner should be able to tell!
The student seems to “timidly” approach and hang out his arm or lightly touch the “master” and then like the worst Aikido demos jumps around the place, sliding and exaggerating the effect. Its out of synch too!!!

Here below myself and a student perform a demo of some of what you can do with seven stars guard... Techniques such as “Part the Wild Horses Mane” and “Pi Jow” are clearly explained I believe, lots of “WHY” we do what we do, lots of “martial” explanation. Take a look at around 1.30 and I, with a reasonably quick movement take my “opponent” off his feet, throwing him a few feet. It's not rehearsed, he doesn't know what is going to happen, so he is ready for whatever comes, he is being compliant relative to sparring or fighting, but he is not being a totally useless bastard, he pulls his punch as its a demo, but the form of his action is correct, you can take a look at him and know he knows what he is doing, and is capable of fighting, which of course he is. I'm even able to show “Why” I do what I do by simply dropping my guard, purposely to display bad habits etc. , and allowing nature take its course as he sends in a cross. What am I saying? Well my student is doing his job and so am I, conversely even the dopiest dope on the planet doesn't behave like the students do in the videos you posted and the "techniques" will never ever work in reality, not a chance! Its so fake, it is totally irrelevant to martial arts. How can anyone fall for this? really??

http://youtu.be/epqooBbffLk

Now below is “Stephen Wooster” one of Dan Docherty's first and best students demonstrating 4 Directions Push Hands. Notice he can send them flying and totally demolish their balance and structure, but notice too, “nothing is exaggerated and nothing is lacking”!!!! Even the demo contains the spirit of true TCC! When a student is sent tumbling, its because first he had been tied up / locked / uprooted etc. and we see how! We see control points, leverage application etc. etc. no “fake” shake to a barely touching student to send them 30 feet away with some chi crap. He certainly uses short shaking jin at times but you'll notice the IMMEDIATE effect on the opponent and its not overly dramatic. They are not pingpong balls but people!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=61 ... =2&theater

The question to ask, is not to be avoided with such nonsense as “those who can do... le bla bla habitual...”, but why does EVERYONE with verifiable combat experience in combat sports, ie people able to deal with trained powerful opponents with the best punches, kicks, lock and throws etc. out there, why do they ALL call this type of sh1t you present fake? Is the world all crazy except you? Find me one single fighter with verifiable experience (not hear-say) that endorses what is proposed on those videos?

That's my final word on it, believe what you like, waste your whole life if you chose seeking Yoda! Make sure he's the vice-president of some Jedi council though so you know its real!

[Niall Keane]

So far wu vs yang but lets break things up. Anyone care to shed light on how they compare to hao/wu-hao?
I wont ask about Sun unless this post reaches another 5 more pages.

I suppose you mean in terms of leaning, as that was the subject discussed?

Wu/Hao and Sun styles use higher stances so the leaning will not be as much pronounced as if you use a lower stance work.

In terms of frame, the Old Wu was much more flexible than standardized Hao, there were many different variations of forms and exercises. I like Hao because of it's very strict frame, but otoh I think that you need to loose up frame a bit and understand different kinds of frame work.

In the clips below, you can see quite a straight stance, but there's still leaning and there's a straight line from the back foot up through the back.

Old wu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHRgnQmo3a4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh2siPvCPo0
Hao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvAFPD8x4E
Here you can see slight leaning, but if you look at other, more recent clips from Hao style, you can see that many people use a completely upright stance.

Sun Style
Sun Lutang learned Wu style before it was standardized as Hao. We should assume that there was more flexibility of frame and posture of the style that SLT learned and frankly, I am quite sure that he taught a more flexible frame work than what is shown in Sun Style today. There are considerably big differencies if you look at his students.

Here you have disciple Wang Xikui, you can see that he have a quite pronounced lean in the movements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds

But if you look at the Sun Jian lineage, most of the studenst stand pretty much straight up. You can see a slight lean if you look at Sun Jianyun, but if you look at her students, as Tim Cartmell for instance, many of them use a completely upright stance.

I don't like modern Hao very much and I don't like the Sun Jianyun lineage (and the Sun Tai Chi from Cartmell especially). There's no use of the spine at all. In tai chi there's a saying that strength should come from the back....
If you don't use form as the same way as you fight, there's no point of practicing form in a martial context.

Also to throw it out there (as a non-tc guy) I assume the flavor is irrelevant and the student/instructor everything but I'm curious if you think otherwise why one might be better than the other.

IMHO, flavor is most relevant, But flavor comes naturally from a long time of practice. I see the point of teaching beginners to stand straight and having a higher stance. That makes sense when you learn a form. There are so many details of both movements and shenfa so it's hard to remember everything at once. And then we have to grow roots and take care of our knees. Leaning is pointless if you don't know about rooting and it's dangerous for your knees if you don't develop the functional strength. Flavor and leaning should come naturally as you progress and as you transform your teachers art into your own art.

Nice post!

[jaime_g]

Frank gotch was famous for wrestle in an upright position, but he was an incredible strong guy.

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition ... -05-30.jpg