Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[Bao]

f you compare some of the non-mainstream Yang versions with Wu, you often find more similiarities.

If you watch older clips of the styles, you will find that there are more similarities as well.

[gzregorz]

Wiki and YouTube, mean nothing in a historical study. If you met someone from that generation who could confirm your conclusion you'd really have something. Then again even then it doesn't mean it's the truth but then you would have some basis for your argument since you have primary source.

[gzregorz]

Of course we've had this debate before. I'll just say that I am not a fan of WGY's fighting so I have no reason to look into his system for the "real Wu." I hear he was good when he left Shanghai (and that he did the fast form) but judging from this fight in the ring, I'd never train his system because my interest is in fighting. If he didn't teach the fast form in HK, he didn't teach the fast form in HK.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsL5104RFg

[johnwang]

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

This is a very bad idea. You will give your opponent a chance to sweep/scoop your leading leg.

Does anybody want to discuss on this issue?

[gzregorz]

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

This is a very bad idea. You will give your opponent a chance to sweep/scoop your leading leg.

Does anybody want to discuss on this issue?

My Wu teacher said that lifting your foot was just jibengong so that you're shifting back but in actual fighting you wouldn't do that.

[cdobe]

Wiki and YouTube, mean nothing in a historical study. If you met someone from that generation who could confirm your conclusion you'd really have something. Then again even then it doesn't mean it's the truth but then you would have some basis for your argument since you have primary source.

Of course we've had this debate before. I'll just say that I am not a fan of WGY's fighting so I have no reason to look into his system for the "real Wu." I hear he was good when he left Shanghai (and that he did the fast form) but judging from this fight in the ring, I'd never train his system because my interest is in fighting. If he didn't teach the fast form in HK, he didn't teach the fast form in HK.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsL5104RFg

Wow, just wow.

So, I have my knowledge from Wikipedia and Youtube? You have no idea, noob. Students of Ma Yueliang come to me to learn in my classes.

I have no connection to Wu Gongyi, never had. My lineage comes from a disciple of Wu Jianquan. If you can read Chinese, you might find out from Ma Yueliang's own writings, that he studied under Wu Gongyi for many years. So, I wonder, if that's the reason, why Ma's lineage has such a little use for fighting. BTW, your own teacher confirmed this to me. He has never seen Ma do a single application in his life. Your teacher also told me that you only learned from him for approximately 1.5 years. You have a lot of nerve, talking about my knowledge and skills in such a derogatory way.

[Niall Keane]

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

This is a very bad idea. You will give your opponent a chance to sweep/scoop your leading leg.

Does anybody want to discuss on this issue?

ok......

its a trip or stop kick real low, its not "left out there" it happens AFTER the opponent has already been lead, diverted and controlled. The Brush Knee Twist Steps are a classic example.

oncoming strike / grab etc.

seven star step, divert with diagonal type of peng severing power, then sieze the arm and drag past you as you twist it exposing his elbow and stretching the joint. now swing body with a cai hua lang dynamic so other shoulder / upper arm smashes elbow joint, at same time...

"step" onto / stop kick his foot, so leverage is used to pull him down, he is now twisted, has had his elbow fcuked and is both tied up and stretched all while his leg is prevented from moving or regaining balance, end result meet the Earth real fast and hard, hit him with the World! ( now every wrestler gotta appreciate that? )

Even in Four Directions tuishou same thing, toes are not lifter until opponent is past your center and being controlled.

I know there are counters, sinking and scooping the other direction, but in fairness, personally I'd need to be half asleep to fall for that, its too easy to simply shift weight or sprawl once I feel the slightest effort to do so in my opponent. (he will need to sink and turn quite a bit) that's my experience anyway.

But you are dead right John re. just leaving a foot out in such a "form" as this would leave not only a scoop or sweep possibility but also a handy knee lock in reversal should he try prevent it being scooped. Some people will practice this without paying attention to controlling the opponent (taking lu as a "roll back" onto themselves rather than a diversion to the side and never incorporating locks, throws and other applications into tuishou) nor the sequence of movement or its application, but hey? nothing much you can do about that! If they cannot understand the inherent weaknesses of a posture in how they practice it, well usually such detail is the least of their concerns.

[vadaga]

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

This is a very bad idea. You will give your opponent a chance to sweep/scoop your leading leg.

Does anybody want to discuss on this issue?

Sure, I think this is actually an interesting question. For the actual use of push hands, i was taught to bring the weight back onto the back foot only up until a point, but once beyond that point, to take a step back. The point is less on having absolutely fixed feet, period, and more about how to be able to receive an incoming amount of force until it is slow enough to then divert it downwards or sideways.

[wayne hansen]

with regard to the sitback i quote the old song

its not what u do its the way that u do it

[gzregorz]

You mad bro? Going straight for the jugular, huh Chris?

Actually I don't believe I said anything offensive to you but as before you take everything as a personal attack and of course you bring my teacher in on it. You are the one who keeps bringing up Wikipedia and YouTube as your sources. If you have another source let's hear it.

Also just for the record I did the Wu for close to a decade before I trained in China. Not that any of this has anything to do with what's being discussed. But even if I only trained for two years I see no reason why we have to accept you as the authority on all things Wu.

For the record, as always, unless I say "someone told me" then my opinions are my own so if you have an issue with me take it up with me and don't drag anyone else into this mess. Perhaps once you calm down you will realize I was just having a conversation with you.

[johnwang]

its a trip ...

I agree that the 7 star stance can be used for "trip" followed by "shin bite". there is no argument there. In the form, when you shift your weight back, you lift your front foot toes up. You have to assume your opponent's leg will move in so perfectly that his leg just fall into your 7 star leg control. If you move in with your back foot, and use your 7 star leading foot to control your opponent's leading leg, that will be a perfect technique. But the way it appear in the form training, the forward step is missing.

If you want to punch, you have to step in. If you want to control your opponent's leg, you also have to step in. Without that step in footwork and assume your opponent's face will "come to" your fist, or his leg will "come to" your leg is not realistic.

In the following clip, it's clear to see that the "forward stepping" is missing. There is no "intend" for "tripping".

[Niall Keane]

I totally agree an essential step is missing in form. Just as in "White Crane Spreads its wings" (hip throw). Or in "Embeace Tiger and Return to Mountain" (throw opponent over your leg, lifting his leg below knee near ankle and draw cutting accross his chest to extend it then turning back to lever the throw, the "entry" is totally absent.

But then we are into the purpose of form.
Ive mentioned before that it is a series of counters and recovery methods strung together. Teaching us how to recover with power in a different direction from an expended jin. As such it isnt broken with entry options and in any case it is not combat, hell we dont fight that slow for one ;-)

This combining of techniques (that came first) into a graceful dance designed to catalogue an arsenal of technique and their relationship to each other has caused aerious confusion in TCC, hell look at this forum and the many who expect technique to look like form, a total ass before the cart understanding of martial art! even so called masters are far from exempt, of what they have published is true and not simply desception - think of Yang Cheng Fu's applications and how linear and devoid of footwork they are presented as in his photos, clearly such only works where an opponent is much smaller and weaker - the antithesis to real TCC!

[gzregorz]

I have no connection to Wu Gongyi, never had. My lineage comes from a disciple of Wu Jianquan. If you can read Chinese, you might find out from Ma Yueliang's own writings, that he studied under Wu Gongyi for many years. So, I wonder, if that's the reason, why Ma's lineage has such a little use for fighting. BTW, your own teacher confirmed this to me. He has never seen Ma do a single application in his life. Your teacher also told me that you only learned from him for approximately 1.5 years. You have a lot of nerve, talking about my knowledge and skills in such a derogatory way.

Not that I'm too concerned what people think or say about me, but being that this is the internet and this will up here forever I should respond. After 10 years of the Wu in the West, I trained for less than two years (but more than a year and half) with my teacher in China from 5 to 10 hours a week of one on one instruction. Yes, I'm far from an expert. If anything I was just scratching the surface. Having babies really changes a man and I had to pack it up and return Stateside, where unfortunately I work every single day between two jobs, thanks to my strong back I make enough to pay the bills but that's about it and as a result I haven't been able to fly over to continue my training and I haven't been find people who are interested in combat taiji for the long haul (who live close by). Hopefully my situation will improve and I will be able to continue where I left off because a lot of the things my teacher showed me in terms of fighting were unique to what he was teaching and came directly from his understanding of Chinese martial arts as well as from his first teacher of the Wu style.

I respect WGY but as I stated before and on other threads it is obvious that as he got older and entered the ring combat taiji was no longer what he was doing or training. (I only bring him up because you're pointed out that he didn't teach the fast form as evidence that the fast form was a recent edition.) My interest is in combat taiji, all the other stuff is easy to find in the US including good push hands but taiji for fighting is not.

I am like anyone else, when I box I get hit, when I do bjj I get tapped out, when I push I get pushed, when I do judo I get thrown. I am not trying to be someone I am not, I am just a martial arts geek and proud of it!

[gzregorz]

Back to the topic, one thing I've leaned to admire about the Yang style (although I don't do it) is the upright posture. Wu styles usually have a little bit of a forward lean that appears throughout the style. After years and years of training I find myself having to correct my posture when I train judo. Saying that I notice not everyone has this issue, but I think patterning good upright posture as the Yang does is very beneficial for most people especially if they just sit at a desk all day or generally have bad posture. Of course a few stretches can fix the issue, but as I age I can appreciate that some systems are more upright more often.

[wayne hansen]

People might get the wrong idea that you lean all the time in Wu.
I have just been correcting a students square form and one thing I have had trouble getting him to understand is the aspect of standing up the leaning posture between postures to bring him back to central equilibrium
.
This is one of the nice things in the Wu.
Even though I am predominatly a yang stylist I like to teach Wu in its traditional form even though I tell my students when they learn it they can practice it as a small circle yang form if they wish.