Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

[johnwang]

another jumping jack student!!!

I have problem with that too. A student who made of straw won't make his teacher look good. One time I demonstrated shoulder throw on one of my students who had black belt in Aikido. He was so used to "cooperate" with his instructor's demo, when I used shoulder throw on him, he jumped up and tried to make my demo look good. Actually he just made my demo looked so fake and I told him after that.

I have seen many TCMA books and clips that only explain how to do it without mention "why (application)". It bothers me big time. Why should I learn something if I don't know "why I need to learn it"? This kind of thinking that you only care about "how" and not care about "why" will bring TCMA away from reality.

[windwalker]

@ niall keane,
nice drawings, they seem to be based on a different set of view points other then what the teacher was talking about.
had to look again, yep not what the teacher was talking about.
Regarding CMC style, I think if one looks at his history and development they will find other influences other then YCF his public teacher.

Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞, 1932 – ), from Beijing City, was a disciple of the famous Wu Style Taijiquan master, Wang Peisheng (王培生, 1919 – 2004). Gao is the executive vice president of Beijing Wu Style Taijiquan Association, professor of Chinese Medicine Taiji Martial Arts Institute and consultant of various Taijiquan associations all across China. Gao Zhuangfei has published a Taijiquan book, numerous Taijiquan articles at various martial arts magazines and three series of Wu Style Taijiquan Instructional dvds.

http://taijimax.com/gao-zhuangfei-taiji ... cation-03/

One would think that the VP of the Beijing Wu style taiji association among other things might be someone who knows a little about wu style taiji.
Guess not

I really hesitate to use examples of highly respected masters to illustrate a point. my mistake.

[windwalker]

another jumping jack student!!!

I have seen many TCMA books and clips that only explain how to do it without mention "why (application)". It bothers me big time. Why should I learn something if I don't know "why I need to learn it"? This kind of thinking that you only care about "how" and not care about "why" will bring TCMA away from reality.

often you mention

My daughter had never lifted any weight in her life but her "functional strength" is more powerful than mine in certain area. This just seems to contradict to what people may believe in "weight lifting". How can we explain that?

maybe they only understand the why, which limits their understanding of the how.
not knowing the how, it becomes a self limited practice of what they know.

[johnwang]

maybe they only understand the why, which limits their understanding of the how.
not knowing the how, it becomes a self limited practice of what they know.

But pole dancing is "solo performance". She doesn't have to deal with her opponent. TCMA is neither "solo" nor "performance".

When you understand the "cloud hand application (why)", how to do it will become so simple.

[windwalker]

I have seen many TCMA books and clips that only explain how to do it without mention "why (application)". It bothers me big time. Why should I learn something if I don't know "why I need to learn it"? This kind of thinking that you only care about "how" and not care about "why" will bring TCMA away from reality.

http://taijimax.com/gao-zhuangfei-taiji ... cation-03/

the why

what he shows is IMO quite different then the clip of the teacher you posted.
Different ideas at work

[windwalker]

http://www.56.com/u44/v_MzY2NzMyNDE.html
http://www.56.com/u23/v_MzczMjUwMzY.html

this teacher is talking about and demoing much of what some of the questions have been concerning lifting of the foot.
If one listens or just watches, he starts out with a demo, then question as to why, with an explanation that follows.
its quite clear.

[Niall Keane]

Thats embarrassing stuff pal! A little shake and drop of the hips sends an "opponent" in the losest sense of the word flying? Without any leverage or borrowing! Magic jedi stuff then!
A low shin kick has an "opponent" hop back 10 feet? Come on!!!
No evasive movement, but then again evade what? WHY do this? WHEN is it useful? WHAT can one really hope to achieve (I know uses in application for various power generation methods and fully understand how to connect my body "internally" thats really all "HOW")
Do you understand what John is asking?

I already answeres the toes up on heel step question WITH PRACTICAL reasoning.
As for my drawings they refer to head to heel alignment that was being discussed.
I was just arrested by horror when i saw those vids!

As for qualifications - i hold many myself - president of Irish branch of PWKA, International liaison Officer ICBA (these two mostly concern national and international sanshou competition), Irish Rep for TCFE, then style specific - chief Instructor of "Wudang Martial Arts / Practical Tai Chi Chuan Ireland) etc. etc....
However who cares? If you cant stand on your own ability but need certs to prove you can fight there is something wrong.

Now imagine some unknown aul-lad from Galway posted up stuff like that where his students go flying, can you hand on heart really say you would take it seriously???

Thats the totality and finality when it comes to martial arts, does it work as demonstrated UNDER PRESSURE?

Sure people will say there is more to martial arts than fighting, i would agree that there is more IN martial arts than scrapping but you cant take the "martial" out - then it is truely "lost" and just Chinese Yoga!

[Niall Keane]

Just to be clear, its all about context!

If someone wants to show how connecting your body and issuing force can have an effect fine, breaking it down simply can be helpful to students, but then it NEEDS to be shown in use in a practical situation so the student can learn "WHY"!

Otherwise like breaking boards etc. its just a circus trick!

[jaime_g]

Makes sense. Why do you suppose Chen Man Ching took it out? At least from what I can see the hips are almost always right below the shoulders.

Maybe for some unshaped old people, that straight line guideline is hard to follow. It does require a much wider range of the body movement. When your body has to move in wider range, it require more out of you. For example, it take more energy to do a SC hip throw than to do a XingYi Beng Quan in solo drill.

This is why I have always believed that under the name of "health for old people", people can change TCMA anyway they want to.

Definitely the same page

Here's a quick comparison:



and my own Sigung:



In fact I think one will find it hard to find an example of TCC similar to CMC. I've heard said by CMC lads that the vertical back to the ground is to develop "relaxation" and not to be used in fighting, but you fight how you train, train bad habits and under the pressure of combat they will be exaggerated!

If we analyse the photos we can see that yes Wu Jian Chuan has his ass sticking out slightly and his forward arm is very straight by comparison, Yang Cheng fu has his knee slightly bent too much (they are always slightly bent and never locked obviously!), but in fairness forming a bow, not totally collapsed. Cheng Tin Hung (who is more modern (videos etc.) and our info on him more accessible and undisputedly could fight well, and train fighters) seems to have the "lean" too! Very straight though? The differences in my opinion are acceptable in personal variation for a "style". CMC on the other hand??? I know this will probably piss a lot of people off, especially in the USA where CMC seems to have been accepted as a master of TCC down to Smith etc. But the images don't lie! Either he is doing "sick" TCC or he does something that may work but is not in accord with TCC as a style, and so is something different.

I have drawn a green vertical from the midpoint of their legs, notice its intersection with the line of foot-head alignment, think on the lines from classics and how "this sickness can be found etc....." and how important and stressed the hips, waist and upper legs are in such classics, as "the general" commanding movement and power and once again note the intersection! Think of how one can support with structure (buy time to "ting") and then suddenly drop and empty an opponent! Enough clues?? If not simply wrestle or spar and enlightenment will be forthcoming!

[Niall Keane]

Lots of lines there jaime ;-) point well made! All funcional arts will have a "lean" - common sense application of the middle third rule!

Think its safe to say the "lean" exists in Wu, Yang, and nearly everything else too, but is absent from CMC that some consider to be representative of "Yang" or a subset of such. Not so sure the other Yang styles consider CMC a Yang style though anymore than they would consider Wu, Tung, Hao, Sun etc.... I could be wrong, just the feedback ive gotten from some practitioners over the years.

[bailewen]

I honestly can't tell for sure what Jaime's point was but ...

I think that your pics (Neal) with all the lines didn't exactly make the point you thought they would. I don't train CMC and have never even been directly exposed to it other than very very briefly through a friend who is really more of a Wing Chun guy anyways. Point being, I truly have no dog in this fight.

That being said, I think the CMC pic actually seems to fit closer with my understanding of what the classics call for anyways. After all, force is generated in the feet, transmitted through the waist and expressed through the hands, no? The other pics all show clear alignment from foot to head. The CMC pic shows a very straight line from foot to hand. Just draw your line from the heel, up the leg, across the empty space to the elbow and out to the hand, out to the fingertips even.

That being said, I don't maintain CMC style "perfect" posture in my own practice...but it makes sense to me when I look at the pics. It strikes me as a perfectly valid expression.

[Steve James]

Well, I don't think that CMC style is limited to form, or that there's never a "lean." Afa how "straight" the back leg is or should be, it would depend on the application. For ex.,

[Niall Keane]

I honestly can't tell for sure what Jaime's point was but ...

I think that your pics (Neal) with all the lines didn't exactly make the point you thought they would. I don't train CMC and have never even been directly exposed to it other than very very briefly through a friend who is really more of a Wing Chun guy anyways. Point being, I truly have no dog in this fight.

That being said, I think the CMC pic actually seems to fit closer with my understanding of what the classics call for anyways. After all, force is generated in the feet, transmitted through the waist and expressed through the hands, no? The other pics all show clear alignment from foot to head. The CMC pic shows a very straight line from foot to hand. Just draw your line from the heel, up the leg, across the empty space to the elbow and out to the hand, out to the fingertips even.

That being said, I don't maintain CMC style "perfect" posture in my own practice...but it makes sense to me when I look at the pics. It strikes me as a perfectly valid expression.

"accross the empty space" - right there you made the mistake! alignment of structure implies using the skeleton compressively to absorb force so the muscles dont have to work hard providing tensile strength to counter a force. the spine is our main column. If thats bent it necessarily is experiencing tensile forces when a load is applied.
Look, away from any theory, try wrestling with the back vertical to the ground when applying or receiving force and let us know how you get on!

[Niall Keane]

Well, I don't think that CMC style is limited to form, or that there's never a "lean." Afa how "straight" the back leg is or should be, it would depend on the application. For ex.,

Sure i have no doubt that TO MANAGE combat that straight back vertical to ground will go out the window straight away. The Brush Knee Twist Step i used is a finished posture and should "end" the application, as such in combat the head heal will be aligned and there will be a "lean", question is why the hell train "the wrong way"???

Like you couldnt imagine a western boxer purposely shadow boxing with say bent wrists and then keeping them straight on the bag and sparring / fighting. That would be ridiculous! why would anyone train "mistakes"?

[Steve James]

I think the difference is only in the "form." I think the idea is more important. I mean, if one expects that when someone is in a particular posture that he must be doing what someone else would be doing, then lots of things will seem wrong. Anyway, when I look at the straight back, I consider it the state before the "energy/force" is released, not at the point of release or after.