the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:26 am**

Hey all,

Wondering if some of our taiji friends out there knew about the similarities (or not) between mainly Wu style taiji and Yang style taiji, which are said to be quite related (since Wu stems from Yang). In particular, Ma Yueliang's system is a quite large system, including things like:

1. Slow Form
2. Fast Form
3. Push Hands (many variations, including 13 hand methods, lan cai hua, etc.)
4. Neigong sets (5 phases set, 8 methods set, etc.)
5. 3 Sword sets (qiankun sword, seven star sword, linking sword)
6. Saber set
7. 2 Spear sets (24 spear, 13 big spear, also some other matched practices)

I was wondering things such as:

1. Is the slow form approximately the same form as the Yang slow form?
2. Is the fast form similar at all to the Yang family's "longfist" form (being faster than the slow form)?
3. Is the push hands training quite similar, or...?
4. Are there similar neigong sets in Yang style? In particular, the Tian Zhaolin line seems to have its own 8-part neigong set (baduanjin), perhaps it is similar to the Wu style's 8?
5. Do any of the 3 Wu style sword sets seem to correlate to the Yang style sword? (I.e., is it qiankun sword?)
6. Is the saber set similar? (Although I think Yang style saber sets seem to diverge a lot, too, all by themselves.)
7. Same as for spear.

If people have experiences with comparing other taiji systems, would be interested to hear about that, too.

Posted: **Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:51 am**

Hi,

I train Yang Taichi in lineage of Yang Shouchung so here is my two cents

1. Slow form is quite different, especially in width of stance, easily seen on Youtube.
2. Am only just starting to learn Yang longfist so can't comment
3. Wu has many more variations , qinna and also some throwing forms whereas Yang is mainly Fajin
4. Yang has no neigong sets in the traditional transmission, power comes from pole shaking and from holding individual poses in a very low stance for a long time
5. Qiankun, seven star sword and linking sword are traditional Shaolin or external forms which have been adapted for Taiji, quite different from Yang sword
6. Broadsword sets quite different also

There is some more information on Yang style on an article I just translated

http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot. ... ay-of.html

Posted: **Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:57 am**

Your excellent analyses are spot on!
Yang style does have 'neigong sets but as usual, are they 'traditional' or adpated' like the many one sees in other style! How about degree of adaption per the generation. I will agree that New Style Yang lacks all of these neigong' related sets as this seems anathema in their present utility. The historical record is that Yang Luchang did not teach Qing officials but based on the instruction handed down by a few adepts, he did pass on traditional materials that appeared to be adapted per the person he was teaching.

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:47 pm**

yeniseri wrote:Your excellent analyses are spot on!
Yang style does have 'neigong' sets...The historical record is that Yang Lu-Chan did not teach Qing officials, but based on the instruction handed down by a few adepts, he did pass on traditional materials that appeared to be adapted per the person he was teaching.

And this manner of instruction was and still is quite common among masters of many styles. They prefer to only teach serious, experienced martial art practitioners, who are already self-disciplined from previous training, and thus far better prepared to more quickly learn and understand the core concepts, principles and training material which the master has to teach.

Typically, regardless of the individual style taught, the most effective teaching method usually involved adding the essence of the master's style to whatever the student already practiced, rather than attempting to start from square one with "baby's first step", so to speak, as is necessary when teaching complete beginners. It is known that many famous masters have taught their arts in this manner.

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:20 pm**

edededed wrote:I was wondering things such as:

1. Is the slow form approximately the same form as the Yang slow form?
2. Is the fast form similar at all to the Yang family's "longfist" form (being faster than the slow form)?
3. Is the push hands training quite similar, or...?
4. Are there similar neigong sets in Yang style? In particular, the Tian Zhaolin line seems to have its own 8-part neigong set (baduanjin), perhaps it is similar to the Wu style's 8?
5. Do any of the 3 Wu style sword sets seem to correlate to the Yang style sword? (I.e., is it qiankun sword?)
6. Is the saber set similar? (Although I think Yang style saber sets seem to diverge a lot, too, all by themselves.)
7. Same as for spear.

1. The sequence of postures is more or less the same. The execution of the movements can be very different. If you compare some of the non-mainstream Yang versions with Wu, you often find more similiarities.
2. No. Ma's fast form is his own expression of a more advanced mode of practice, but contains basically the same sequence of movements as the "slow form".
3. Wu style has IME a greater variety of different PH exercises.
4. Generally, there are some similar exercises practiced in both Yang and Wu style. One of Ma's qigong set is legit and is practiced by many other lineages as well. The other one, I think it is the "8 methods" is pretty generic qigong and can hardly be called a taiji neigong set.
5. Wu Jianquan only taught one jian set, which is different from the Yang set. The other two sets were invented later.
6. Some Yang style people practice a xuan xuan dao set, which has the same sequence as the Wu style dao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeqQfEfm3fU
7. All spear techniques of Chinese MA are very similar.

Posted: **Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:53 pm**

Thanks, guys, lots of great information!

Quite a lot of interesting topics I think - for example:
A. For the neigong sets that may be practiced by more than one lineage, what neigong sets are these? And do the names change from lineage to lineage?
B. For the various taiji sword sets, where do they come from? If Wu's sword sets are from other styles, where did Yang's sword set come from? (And which of the three Wu sword sets came from Wu Jianquan?)
C. Taiji spear is also an interesting topic, since Yang Luchan was best known for that weapon; certainly, spear basics are quite similar for most CMA. Still, would be interesting if the routines and methods for spear are the same across the taiji styles. (I personally don't know much about taiji spear, I can talk a bit about bagua spear...)

Posted: **Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:46 am**

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:54 pm**

Daniel-san wrote:Yang style Bow Stance -

Front foot points forward, rear foot angled out 45 degrees

Wu style Bow Stance -

2 feet parallel - I used to think that the 2 feet pointed straight forward, parallel to each other, but 1 teacher told me that the front foot should be angled inwards while the rear foot is angled outwards, so that the 2 feet are still parallel to each other but not pointing straight forward. Toe of front foot should be in line with heel of rear foot.

PUSH HANDS - Yang style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) sole of front foot remains flat on ground.

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

To add to the above, both styles have a different way of holding themselves with respect to the spine. Yang prefers a straight spine whereas Wu has more of a pronounced curve in the lower spine causing Wu stylists to appear as though they are leaning.

Not too sure on what this difference implies but it is a big one no doubt since the spine is a major part of the anatomy. This difference could well be an indication of the different strategies both styles aim for and could be the reason for the different movement pattern.

From the above though, I would say the movement pattern of Wu style style appears to lend itself more to twisting and binding strategies which could be reflective of its predominant use of quinna (as one user above mentioned) as opposed to fajin which is more of a yang trademark and not-surprisingly the yang structure is more conducive to fajin'in.

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:43 pm**

Daniel-san wrote:PUSH HANDS - Yang style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) sole of front foot remains flat on ground.

PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

I have definitely pushed with Yang practitioners who lifted their toes as they shifted their weight back. IMO this distinction should only be relevant for beginners. No matter how your PH patterns are choreographed, in freestyle PH you should have the capability to shift weight with or without lifting your toes. For that matter, you should be able to yield with or without shifting weight, regardless of style. (It blew my mind when I first pushed with Chen practitioners who only rotated and never shifted their weight at all.)

AK

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:12 pm**

Amor - regarding stepping, the Wu style does seem to not really shift the weight back and forth like many Yang stylists do (at least when I learned it many years ago). I thought that the feet remaining parallel and forward was one reason for this (since stepping would not require one or both of the feet to be moved in any way). If the stepping is in fact parallel but diagonal, wouldn't it require pivoting of the feet (and thus weight shifts forward and back) when stepping?

(Also, in my (maybe not so good) Yang style learning years ago, we lifted up the feet when shifting back... but I do hear that some Yang groups do not do this.)

Lots of good tidbits from everyone, thanks

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:23 pm**

Daniel-san wrote:PUSH HANDS - Wu style

When sitting back in stance (weight on rear leg) toes of front foot lift up, foot rests on heel.

This is a very bad idea. You will give your opponent a chance to sweep/scoop your leading leg. It will be very hard for you to escape out it if your toes is up and heel is down. The sweep/scoop does require that your opponent's instep to touch your back ankle. Your opponent's push may be just a fake while his scoop may be real. If you keep your foot "flat", when your opponent tries to sweep/scoop you, all you need is just to lift your heel. If his instep can't touch your ankle, his sweep/scoop won't be effective.

The 7 star stance is a very bad idea from a grappler point of view. Try this with your training partner. It's very easy to prove it.

The "knee bending" is the best move to escape out of your opponent's foot sweep/scoop. It's much easier to do it when your foot is flat on the ground than when you have toes up and heel down.

Posted: **Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:40 pm**

edededed wrote:Amor - regarding stepping, the Wu style does seem to not really shift the weight back and forth like many Yang stylists do (at least when I learned it many years ago). I thought that the feet remaining parallel and forward was one reason for this (since stepping would not require one or both of the feet to be moved in any way). If the stepping is in fact parallel but diagonal, wouldn't it require pivoting of the feet (and thus weight shifts forward and back) when stepping?

(Also, in my (maybe not so good) Yang style learning years ago, we lifted up the feet when shifting back... but I do hear that some Yang groups do not do this.)

Lots of good tidbits from everyone, thanks

The stance pattern that Daniel-san mentioned above comparing wu & yang style, the wu stance (from my trying it out) just doesn't seem to lend itself well to stepping; well its not as easy to do with the yang stance. Because with the yang stance its easy to control the legs with pelvic movement due to the front foot forward, back is 45 deg.
But with wu it feels you will have to use the leg bones to turn the pelvis and then when you want to step you have to use the waist. Wu style is known for emphasizing having a flexible waist and im guessing that alot of the stepping is done via the waist in that respect.
I'm not a wu stylist and so this is just my take on what you mentioned so perhaps some experienced wu stylist on this boards would be better placed to comment; but it wouldn't surprise me about these foot work biomechanics as wu style is allegedly yang small frame and they are definitely more advanced than your average yang stylist who advocates front foot forward back foot at 45 deg, which is pretty much most of them out there today.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:49 pm**

cdobe wrote:1. The sequence of postures is more or less the same. The execution of the movements can be very different. If you compare some of the non-mainstream Yang versions with Wu, you often find more similiarities.

For the record this seems to be the poster's own conclusion.

Posted: **Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:01 am**

gzregorz wrote:
cdobe wrote:1. The sequence of postures is more or less the same. The execution of the movements can be very different. If you compare some of the non-mainstream Yang versions with Wu, you often find more similiarities.

For the record this seems to be the poster's own conclusion.

Posted: **Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:01 am**

gzregorz wrote:
cdobe wrote:1. The sequence of postures is more or less the same. The execution of the movements can be very different. If you compare some of the non-mainstream Yang versions with Wu, you often find more similiarities.

For the record this seems to be the poster's own conclusion.

Its a fact. These are the first two results in my search and although they might not be the best or most representative examples, they prove my point, that the sequence is more or less the same. Is it controversial, that Yang and Wu style do different interpretations of one of the same posture, e.g. White Crane Spread Wings ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_Y ... f_Postures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108-form_W ... _chi_chuan

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Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

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Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.

Re: Similarities between Wu style Taiji, Yang style Taiji, etc.