What would 20th c Japanese martial artists pick up in China?

[everything]

The taikiken connection to yiquan is documented from both sides but what about other arts? Some speculation has been covered here on bagua's possible influence on aikido. Some people say the only evidence is that Bruce Frantzis speculates about it in one of his books. Others say it's likely because daito ryu is linear. Still, circularity is present in many arts, anyway. Whatever the case, several famous Japanese masters traveled in China. I assume there is no way any avid martial artist, let alone master, wouldn't try to pick up something (probably the very point of those travels), just as many readers here still seek IMA/CMA in China.

For these JMA masters who spent time in CMA:

- Kenichi Sawai (yiquan / taikiken)
- Morihei Ueshiba (bagua? aikido)
- Toshitsugu Takamatsu (? / ninjutsu)

what would the likely richness of exchange really have been like, apart from the political incorrectness in the larger history? Somewhere on an yiquan page, it's said Wang told his students to hold back something from Sawai, at least at first. However, that doesn't seem to have occurred and later generations seem to exchange info openly among these branches (something everyone else should aspire to). In the ninjutsu case, there doesn't seem to be anything "internal" but the art includes circular footwork (among others) that seems very similar to that in aikido. Takamatsu's senior student supposedly beat Mifune in a judo match once (according to Wikipedia, can't verify elsewhere). Also, Takamatsu was supposedly bodyguard to Puyi. I assume, if true, that would have been when Puyi was puppet emperor of Manchuria and no CMA influence may have been present (or could it have been? Baguazhang???)

[Interloper]

Aikido itself, with its overt, externally generated "circles," has about as much connection to bagua as squaredancing has to tight-rope walking.

On the other hand, its progenitor, Daito-ryu, has more in common with bagua via the internal body skills both arts originally possessed (and which some schools and invidivuals still have today, but not all bagua, or all Daito-ryu).

And, Daito-ryu "linear?" No, it is very circle-y and spiraly. It's just that those circles and spirals are very, very subtle. Only the most superficial appearance of it is "linear." It's all about circular.

[Interloper]

Seems to me that if Ueshiba observed Chinese internal martial arts, he would likely have been comparing notes about the striking similarities and overlap between their internal methodology and Daito-ryu's. I have a feeling that he would not have learned anything new from China, except maybe some training exercises that would just put a different perspective on what he already knew and was doing. Everything he demonstrates in existing films points to DR for all his body skills. The DR stamp is all over him like a cheap suit.

[everything]

Fascinating. I didn't realize daito is actually more like bagua than is aikido.

I think it's a matter of assumption that any dedicated martial artist would pick up what he could, even if only by observation. I'm sure many posters here would pick up quite a lot in a matter of months, and many of us are "hobbyists". A "master" especially one who had some kind of amazing photographic / kinesthetic memory (I find it incredible that some people seem to have this ability):

Remember, Ueshiba was the man of whom Sugino Yoshio stated that he could observe something once and see exactly what they were doing.

- who knows what would go through his mind and how it may or may not affect him?
Despite the political climate of the particular period, part of Japanese culture, while looking to emulate the West, as a whole, still probably looked to China as a source of fascinating, great art. Not to draw any particular conclusion about Ueshiba - I'm sure the truth is lost - but the overall history is interesting. Alternatively, there may have been no pattern whatsoever and each encounter depended on the individuals. The yiquan/taikiken case seems to have gone against the grain.

[everything]

Farther from the scope of "internal" but the Takamatsu case seems even more fascinating and "mysterious" to me than the Ueshiba speculation:
- One of his nicknames was "Mongolian Tiger".
- in his travels he would have been much younger, not a "master", and more impressionable, probably more free to learn whateva
- The connection to Puyi as bodyguard.
- A connection to Jigoro Kano

Some of the Wikipedia entry:

He traveled through Mongolia to China at the age of 21, taught martial arts and delivered many battles on life or death. [3]He taught martial arts at an English school in China and had over 1000 students. He was the bodyguard of the last Chinese Emperor Puyi. He became Tendai Buddhist priest in 1919. In 1921 he was permitted to copy the Kukishin Ryu scrolls (+ Amatsu Tatara scrolls) of the Kuki family. He was also a good friend of Jigoro Kano (Kodokan Judo) and took care of his younger brother. They both lived in the same region.

In a "seven degrees of Kevin Bacon" way, the connection to Kano and his brother and region seems quite remarkable.

[edededed]

Wasn't Huo Diange (bajiquan disciple of Li Shuwen) bodyguard of last Chinese emperor Puyi?

[Muad'dib]

Solo kata practice is very rare within Japanese martial arts.

Um, can't think of a statement that could be more untrue.

[Finny]

Solo kata practice is very rare within Japanese martial arts.

Um, can't think of a statement that could be more untrue.

Traditional JMA are remarkably bereft of solo kata practise.

Other than iai/batto kata - which themselves are usually a more recent development - most traditional JMA were practised/taught by way of two-person kata

Disregarding Karate of course, being as how it's okinawan/chinese in origin.

[Muad'dib]

sorry, missed the "solo."

[kenneth fish]

In the 20th century, I would venture syphilis, gonorrhea, and dysentery were likely. In the 21st century, AIDs, herpes, and hepatitis.

[mixjourneyman]

But seriously, if we include Okinawa, there were several masters who went to China and learned Souther Gong Fu. The most notable is Chojun Myagi.
His descendants claim he may even have learned taiji and xingyi and I have seen a movement in Goju Karate that looks almost exactly like xingyi's tai bird form.

[AllanF]

Diato ryu...now there is an art that is fascinating to me! Though as far as i can tell there is absolutely no connection with CMA. In that Sokaku Takeda or his father never had any contact with China.

[Interloper]

Allan,
I think it very likely that the internal arts of Japan acquired their internal components from China, though it's highly unlikely that Takeda himself directly learned internal skills from the Chinese. And, probably, Takeda's family/clan arts had possessed that aiki for generations, and that's where he got the internal skills/aiki that he later used to empower Daito-ryu.

[everything]

Allan,
I think it very likely that the internal arts of Japan acquired their internal components from China, though it's highly unlikely that Takeda himself directly learned internal skills from the Chinese. And, probably, Takeda's family/clan arts had possessed that aiki for generations, and that's where he got the internal skills/aiki that he later used to empower Daito-ryu.

I don't know enough about the countries' histories but I'm pretty sure in earlier times more full transfer of knowledge would have been politically less incorrect. Still, why would someone transmit knowledge to foreigners if he wouldn't transmit it outside his family members easily? It all seems lost in the mist of time. With the 20th c not as long ago, I wonder if we'll find out more... the taikiken line must have some more stories to tell.