Taiji, 大道 Dai Dao, 魔道 Evil Dao

[Sprint]

Ok let me try this from a slightly different angle. In yi quan the basic training consists of zhan zhuang ---shili--mocabu---fali. If you do not learn these then you have absolutely no chance of reaching "university level" - ever. It's a sequence with one thing leading to the next. After you have mastered the basics you can learn push hands and fighting. Most schools that I know of teach these elements all together, but the essential - no-getting-away-from-it-fact is that unless you really learn those basics you are wasting your time.

So would Dr Fish or Miro or some other highly experienced individual care to enlighten the rest of us as to how to get to university level? I could describe the yiquan process in infinite detail but I doubt that would help anyone interested to learn, but at least they would know what to look for from a teacher if they decided one day to learn yiquan.

[johnwang]

John, you say you haven't met any true taiji masters who can use taiji in combat? Didn't GM Chang practice taiji? Could he use taiji in combat? I don't know if many people would consider my teacher a taiji master but I have been on the receiving end of some taiji techniques he has used when we were sparring pretty hard (hard for me anyways) and he can make them work.

I didn't say that. Adam Hsu did. I just translated what he said in his book.

[Jack Burton]

As far as the true Taiji masters who can use Taiji in combat, I haven't met anyone yet in my life time so far.

Sorry for my ignorance but who is Adam Hsu

Thats a strange thing to say

[Bob]

Metaphorically speaking, you always need a container to give shape and hold the "fluid softness".

Ben Lo, a formal student of Zhang Manqing, a practitioner of the softest of the soft, even tells the story of having to hold postures in the first stages of training in Yang's taijiquan [as an example of one of many grade school basic practices].

I don't want to speak for Miro, as he is capable of doing that for himself, but my guess, judging by youtube clips, that even their practice of baguaquan has "grade school" basics.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I always hear plenty on this board about so called advanced taiji methods -university level - as has been pointed out. I never hear anyone talk about the basics. So how is a new person to taiji supposed to benefit from the discussion board. So I will ask now: in your opinion what are the absolute basic essential training methods of taiji that must be learned in order to be able to achieve university level?

I think the idea is that taiji itself is university level. There are higher and lower level lessons and skills in all martial arts but the basic premise as I understood it from Johns OP is that taiji itself is university level practice.

The basics of taiji are like calculus. If you want to be able to do calc you have to know geometry and algebra first. Calculus at its most basic lets you do things that you can do with algebra and geometry, just calculus is a lot easier, even though the methods of calculus are very difficult at first. Eventually calculus leads into things that can never be done with just algebra and geometry.

John, you say you haven't met any true taiji masters who can use taiji in combat? Didn't GM Chang practice taiji? Could he use taiji in combat? I don't know if many people would consider my teacher a taiji master but I have been on the receiving end of some taiji techniques he has used when we were sparring pretty hard (hard for me anyways) and he can make them work.

I didn't say that. Adam Hsu did. I just translated what he said in his book.

Sorry I misread the post.

[Frank Bellemare]

I have a lot of respect for Adam Hsu but to me he is Baji and Xingyi not so much Taiji.

AFAIK, he trained for around 10 years under Du Yu Zhe, who trained under Chen Yanxi (Chen FaKe's father). That's not too shabby as far as lineage goes.

I think the idea is that taiji itself is university level. There are higher and lower level lessons and skills in all martial arts but the basic premise as I understood it from Johns OP is that taiji itself is university level practice.

The way I understood it is that taijiquan as it is practiced today does not lead to proper fighting skill because its sole focus is the highest level of skill as described in the classics. Theory, in other words. Like buying a violin and trying to play Mozart.

My school is plagued with the same disease, only 2 taiji people have decent fighting skills. Which begs the question, what should taiji's primary and secondary school be like? That I'd be interested in learning about. My guess is it would look a lot like northern long fist training.

[johnwang]

buying a violin and trying to play Mozart.

Most people expect too much out of Taiji.

- When I had Austin Community College Taiji class, the 1st day of the class I introduced the CMA 8 basic stances (horse stance, bow-arrow stance,...), a guy stook up and left. Before he exited to the door he turned around and said, "This is not Taiji". I have never seen that person since then. Even today, I still don't know what I had done wrong that day. That was more than 25 years ago.

- One of my students took Taiji just because she expected that Taiji could cure her cancer. She died 2 years later any way and I felt I can't save her life with my Taiji power and I was not a good Taiji teacher after all.

- When I taught Taiji application, an old student said, "Do you expect me to fight at my old age?"

I don't teach Taiji any more because I don't know what most people expect out of Taiji.

[Frank Bellemare]

It's the same story over and over. Anyone trying to teach taiji full time has to make some concession to survive.
Teaching taiji for fighting is just not economically viable.

John, following Adam Hsu's line of thinking, what do you think taiji's primary and secondary school training should be? And seeing as you know Adam, do you know how he taught his taiji curriculum?

[johnwang]

IMO,

Primary school training - straight punch, hook punch, front kick, side kick, ...
High school training - sole form, 2 men drill, wrestling, sparring, ...
University training - set up, counters, entering strategy, finish strategy, ...

I had many discussion with Adam on this issue. He said, "Find 3 baskets and label beginner, intermediate, and advance. Taking your moves out of your brain and try to fill up those 3 baskets".

[mixjourneyman]

Frank, if two people at your school can fight with their tjq, thats pretty impressive.
tjq is not easy to learn to fight with. Your teacher must be putting you guys on the right path.

[TaoJoannes]

My deflated 2 Juan.

There are a lot of people that like to talk shit about Taiji, and there is plenty of good cause for it, given what is seen by many, but in my experience, so far, it hasn't let me down on any front, and the more I learn, the more I find that relaxation and not using force are the key skills to be trained and used in the art.

By relaxation, I mean removing any irrelevant tension in the body that saps strength and soaks up the flow of kinetic energy through the structure.

By not using force, I mean the same thing, not using muscles to make up for the deficiency of structure. A great deal of kinetic energy can be passed from the player to the intended argument without any significant amount of muscular exertion. In fact, I'd wager to bet that more kinetic energy could be imparted with less muscular exertion.

There is a definite spectrum, or continuum of skills in the Taiji universe, the bottom end of which is the attainment of "perfect health", a body and mind free of irrelevant tension and energetic blockages that functions perfectly in its self-healing and the tasks of living. Some folks get off the bus there, and that's fine for them. But you can't get to the stops on the other side without going through those stages. I think there are something like 60 different energies that go into the makeup of a taiji player's level of gongfu, and each of them can be at a different level, producing in each iteration a wholly unique fighter.

The basics are relaxation and softness, Taiji is the art of concealing hardness within that softness, according to some. Central Equilibrium is the substance and rollback is the application.

[johnwang]

Without using force, can you

- Swim 3 miles?
- Move your furniture from 1st floor to the 2nd floor?
- Give your love one multiple organism?

Back in 1971, one of my summer jobs in NYC was to use a sledge hammer to knock down a 2 store brick building all by myself. I had some difficulty to follow the Taiji principles in my job. Today I wish some Taiji masters could show me how to do that job properly.

"Relaxation and not using force" can only achieve part of your goal. You still need those "low level stuff - using force" to reach to your goal. Taiji guys love to talk about "defense" but don't like to talk about "offense". You don’t need force to yield, sticky, follow, ... but you do need force to knock the shit out of your enemy.

[C.J.Wang]

Well, in order to move, stay erect, or produce any kind of force it's impossible to relax everything. Otherwise you'd be lying on the ground like a sack of potatoes.

It's about using the body differently. In CMA terms, this is accomplished by utilizing power from "jin gu" (tendon and bone) rather than "rou" (flesh, muscle.)

[kenneth fish]

I noticed my name being dragged into this - so here are my two pfennigs:

Martial arts in China were developed in a vastly different physical environment. As John alluded, everything was done by manual labor. You want to take a bath? Ok, first go to the well and get 8 to 10 buckets full of water. Cook dinner? Chop wood. And so on. The idea that martial arts does not require a modicum of strength is absurd. If you want to get to grade school level in the foundation work of CMA, first get strong - work on stances, body unity drills, moving stance drills. Then learn how to punch and kick without upsetting your stances. Then work with a partner to develop your blocking, slipping, and dodging (with proper stance and body position/postrue). And so on.

Oddly enough, the first martial artist I ever met who could utilize the principles of yielding and softness, who could maneuver you out of your center with out you knowing, who could deflect with a barely perceptible touch, who could stick and follow and strike at high speed, was my Wing Chun teacher Henry Leung. This is not an espousal of Wing Chun as popularly practiced, mind you (most of the people I have met are fairly rigid ) - it is just my way of saying that the principles are good and achievable, but one needs the right teacher and tools.

I should also say that later on I met other teachers who had very high level skills which seemed soft, springy and effortless. Only one or two were taiji teachers, and those had gained their skills from other arts. All of them spent their formative years training strength, stability, postures, speed and reactivity, and their training was grueling both physically and mentally.

Nothing like the way Taiji is sold in the west.

Bear in mind too that many Chinese Taiji teachers nowadays have not gone through the kind of hard physical training I am describing - and many only became teachers after retiring from their regular jobs, so they teach for fun, ego gratification, a feeling of worth, a desire for attention, etc. Few have any experience with fighting, and pushing hands becomes an end unto itself.

[Aged Tiger]

Well, I haven't posted in ages, so here goes.

I have to agree with Shawn and a few others about having the "metaphysical" BS cloud your mind. I have been traing about 25 years now and have to say that BASICS and FOUNDATION are the 2 most important things while climbing the ladder to advanced ability.

I have meet more people than I can name who honestly believe that understanding theory is all they have to do to be skilled, and that simply NOT the case.

My 2 cents, all the theory in the world will not help you in fighting if you never fight, or learn to "eat better" with the long, hard, boring fundamentals. The mind may be sharp but the body and the will are just out to lunch.

I teach a very small group now, and have several (one who is older than me) who just plain mentally block out the connection of skill=hard work + proper teaching. Both go together, not one OR the other......

As to "Evil" Dao, I think it just means that without the bitter, the ego tends to pull us toward the easy path, not the right one..... FWIW


Chas