Yongnian: Center of Taijiquan?

[Andy_S]

Having read YM's and Stephen's statements on the other thread re Yongnian, I would be curious to know what is practiced there now.

Given that the Yangs were (arguably) the most famous martial family in modern CMA history, and their MA has spread worldwide in a fashion that Yang Luchan surely did not imagine in his wildest dreams - is the village cashing in on its heritage the way that Chenjiagou is?
Is there a Taiji school(s), museum, etc, in the village?
Is the Taiji practiced there of a particularly high quality?
I understand that most of the Yangs lived most of their lives in Beijing...where does the Yongnian tradition hail from?
What do people think of the sets practiced there today? YM has posted some very interesting clips (which to my eye, at least, is barely recognizable as Taiji), and I wonder what others think of it; Is this legitimate?
Is there any pre-Taiji Yongnian martial art there that Yang LC might have learned as a nipper?
The Chen village schools, and, indeed, many students of the schools and masters in the surrounding areas, are frequent parcicipants in Henan tournaments, in both PH and form. Do the Yongnian people compete?

[TaoBoxer]

When I was in Beijing earlier this year I went and trained a little bit with Yao ChengRong at his place in the Hutong. His disciple (I forget his name, I'd have to look it up) told me that he was from the Yang family home village and that there was quite a bit of TaiJi going on there. It is odd that you never really hear about it though...

Lewitt

[Yuen-Ming]

Yongnian has a lot of Yang and Wu/Hao styles and sub-styles available.
My personal impression is that they have lost the skills because they have not practiced enough, but one of the most vaste early curriculum of the Yang's is still there.
WRT the Yang transmission in Yongnian and vicinities (Handan etc.) there are lines pre and post Beijing. The lines pre-Beijing, like Chen Xiufeng's line for example, have a smaller curriculum which shows how Banhou - in his late years after going back to his hometown - developed and enlarged his father original curriculum.
Most of what I know is absolutely legitimate, as I had the chance to find evidence of the exact same in various other lines that have left Yongnian long ago and actually lost contact. The only 'problem' I see, as I said, is that skills are poor as most of the people there hasn't really spent enough time and sweat on their material.

In chinese we say "It is not fast horses to be rare. What's rare is men capable enough to recognize them"

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

May I digress a bit quoting the story I paraphrased in my previous message ?

I think it addresses quite well the common need for the 'secret form', 'hidden transmission' ... and everything that is necessary to put the blame on others for not reaching good levels in Taijiquan

YM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

《马说》
An Essay on Horse
韩愈
Writer: Han Yu

世有伯乐，然后有千里马。千里马常有，而伯乐不常有。故虽有名马，辱于奴隶之手，骈死于槽枥之间，不以千里称也。

世间有了伯乐，然后才会有千里马。千里马经常有，可是伯乐却不会经常有。所以即使是雄健的马，也只能在仆役的手下受屈辱，和普通的马一起死在马厩里，不会获得千里马的称号。

In this world, we must have Bo Le first, and then we can have swift horses. Swift horses are always available, but Bo Le is hard to find.” Though swift horses are available, they’re disgraced for being handled by those ignorant servants, or die with rips in the same shabby barn, without being titled as “Swift Horse”.


马之千里者，一食或尽粟一石。食马者，不知其能千里而食也。是马也，虽有千里之能，食不饱，力不足，才美不外见，且欲与常马等不可得，安求其能千里也。

日行千里的马，一顿或许能吃下一石粮食。喂马的人不懂得要根据它日行千里的本领来喂养它。(所以)这样的马，虽然有日行千里的才能，却吃不饱，力气不足，它的才能和美好的素质也就表现不出来，想要跟普通的马相等尚且办不到，又怎么能要求它日行千里呢?

Each day, Swift horses might consume grains a few times than those common ones do. Grooms, don’t know how swift they can be, feed them less than they need. Although these horses are swift ones, with an unsatisfied stomach, being lack of energy, they can’t turn their outstanding ability and their best side outward. They can’t be expected to work as well as those common ones, not to mention to be swift.


策之不以其道，食之不能尽其材，鸣之而不能通其意，执策而临之，曰：“天下无马。”呜呼！其真无马耶？其真不知马也！

鞭策它，不按正确的方法，喂养它，又不能使它充分发挥自己的才能，听它嘶叫，却不懂得它的意思，（只是）拿着鞭子站在它跟前说：“天下没有千里马！”唉!难道果真没有千里马吗?其实是他们真不识得千里马啊!

One spurring them in a wrong way, feeding them with insufficient grain, not understanding their whinnying in heartbreak, but the one is still shouting, “No swift horses in this world!”, while cracking his whip in from of them. —— Sigh ~ ~! Are there really no swift horses? As a matter of fact, the one just knows nothing about them!

[velalavela]

Hi,

I'm probably going way of the thread here and this web page has been about for a while so probably already been debated to death by most of you before.

I read Dan Docherty's Tai Chi book a few years back " Complete Tai Chi". He had an interesting thesis on Chen Style. Also here is a qoute from the below web link.

I don't actually agree with him,. To me it does not add up, but he has ( evidenced from his book ) done a bit of research, has a degree in Chinese Literature (?)and don the leg work.

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... iator.html

NB: The bold part of this post below is a quote taken from the above web url/link

What about Chen style Tai Chi?

Oh yes, this amazing Taoist martial art with techniques such as 'Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar'! basically it's Shaolin Boxing with a bit of Tai Chi thrown in. I've written on this elsewhere. In brief, some members of the Chen Clan of Henan Province wanted to cash in on Tai Chi's popularity so they invented a false genealogy and put forward their mish-mash of Chen Family Pao Chui and Tai Chi as the original Tai Chi. China's leading Tai Chi historian Wu Tu-nan exploded this myth in 'A Research into Tai Chi Chuan' (written in Chinese and published in 1986) which describes his visit to the Chen family village in 1917.

[velalavela]

Hey man,

I did not write it.

The Bold section in my post is taken from a web page, from the link I posted. It is from an interview with Dan Docherty.

[AllanF]

Dan Docharty has his own agenda (Re Chen taiji he couldn't have done that much 'research' as there are plenty of pic of Chen Fake and video's books etc from his students) also he has in the past belittled almost every taiji family/variant out there including being less than polite when talking about Wang Peisheng. He has also said that the Yang family Yang Chengpu and one of his sons were struggling in the intellect department in regard to the death of the former.
As far as i can tell the only real taiji in this world that people can use in a fight is, strangly enough, the one DD and his teacher taught. What a shocker! Didn't see that one coming a mile off!

RE Yongnian I think, and i am not sure about this, that Zhai Weichuan (Wu/Hao taiji) hails from there. I really like his stuff on youtube etc. Clip below.

[AllanF]

Dan Docharty has his own agenda (Re Chen taiji he couldn't have done that much 'research' as there are plenty of pic of Chen Fake and video's books etc from his students) also he has in the past belittled almost every taiji family/variant out there including being less than polite when talking about Wang Peisheng. He has also said that the Yang family Yang Chengpu and one of his sons were struggling in the intellect department in regard to the death of the former.
As far as i can tell the only real taiji in this world that people can use in a fight is, strangly enough, the one DD and his teacher taught. What a shocker! Didn't see that one coming a mile off!

RE Yongnian I think, and i am not sure about this, that Zhai Weichuan (Wu/Hao taiji) hails from there. I really like his stuff on youtube etc. Clip below.

[Andy_S]

Yes, Dan doesn't mind talking the talk - but then, he can (and does) also walk the walk. I disagree with most of what he says about Chen Taiji, though his views are not unique; a number of Yang and Wu people say the same thing, largely, I suspect, becasue their lineages are almost entirely "soft and slow." OTOH, some reserach - such as that of Stephan Yan - may prove that early Chen family Taiji (whatever it was called at the time) WAS mixed with some form of EMA. And some of the things Dan writes - such as the removal of the old gravestones in the village to be replaced by shiny new ones praising Chen family MA skills - are clearly true.

YM:

Good story about the horses, but the way I read it it is a critique, not of masters keeping things secret, but of not properly recognizing the needs of their charges, and so training them incorrectly.

But back to Yongnian. Who has been? What is there? Given YM's comments above, I presume there is no Taiji school there...unlike in Chenjiagou, where the Taiji schools have opened an avenue of employment for Taiji people, who can become professional, full time MArtists, and so has, I would say, raised the standard.

[Frank Bellemare]

Some have speculated that previous training in Hongquan may account for some of the differences between Yang family forms and Chen village forms, although it must be recognized as speculation, and speculation that tends to compare the Yang Cheng Fu large frame with the Chen village forms of today--in the frequent use of gongbu in the YCF form, for example.

I know this is not really the subject of the thread, but if you look at Du Yu Zhe's Chen style form which he learned from Chen Fake's father Chen Yanxi, it looks like a cross between Yang and Chen style. Lots of gong bu and facing straight. Draw your own conclusions. It should be noted that since standardized forms are a relatively recent thing, the Chen forms likely had as many variations as they had practitioners. The current standard form is Chen FaKe's interpretation, but his father and ancestors might have practiced it differently.

[Yuen-Ming]

Good story about the horses, but the way I read it it is a critique, not of masters keeping things secret, but of not properly recognizing the needs of their charges, and so training them incorrectly.

But back to Yongnian. Who has been? What is there? Given YM's comments above, I presume there is no Taiji school there...unlike in Chenjiagou, where the Taiji schools have opened an avenue of employment for Taiji people, who can become professional, full time MArtists, and so has, I would say, raised the standard.

There are certainly various readings to every story

Yongnian has various Taiji schools and associations, probably more then they should considering that as I said there is not that much quality Taiji.
They are not, however, 'organized' like the Chen village and hopefully they won't go that road in the future ... but who knows !

YM

[Andy_S]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being "organized" like Chen Village...there are now three fulltime schools (Wang Xian's, Chen Xiaoxing's and Chen Zhousen's) in the village, and also a "school" (actually, the master's home) in the neighbouring hulei village (actually just across the "jiagou") from Chen. Chen Bing is also building a school. These all provide opps for local employment, allow practitioners to practice MA professionally, offers opps for full time training and so, I would suggest, raise the standard across the board. And of course, there is nothing stopping the little old men training in their own homes and courtyards.

That having been said, the pricing IS getting ridiculous.

[Yuen-Ming]

Sure I have nothing toward organization and commercialization.
I believe however, for personal experience of many years, that the best Taiji is found in private homes and is taught only to few selected people

YM

[king-kong]

Dan Docharty has his own agenda (Re Chen taiji he couldn't have done that much 'research' as there are plenty of pic of Chen Fake and video's books etc from his students) also he has in the past belittled almost every taiji family/variant out there including being less than polite when talking about Wang Peisheng. He has also said that the Yang family Yang Chengpu and one of his sons were struggling in the intellect department in regard to the death of the former.
As far as i can tell the only real taiji in this world that people can use in a fight is, strangly enough, the one DD and his teacher taught. What a shocker! Didn't see that one coming a mile off!

RE Yongnian I think, and i am not sure about this, that Zhai Weichuan (Wu/Hao taiji) hails from there. I really like his stuff on youtube etc. Clip below.

More rubbish. Dans list of reccommended books.
http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/merchandis ... ading.html
Chen Style Taijiquan
Paul H Crompton
ISBN: 9622380166
Paul H Crompton
One of the first English language introductory guides to Chen style, quite ok. **buy.

Dan also is involved in the organisation with many Tai Chi chuan competitions on a European level including the British Open for many years where competitors from all styles of tai chi compete including Chen.

Seems like the Chens have got their act together in the Chen village and it´s undestanable that Yang or Wu schools could be looking along heritage lines but Yuen Ming is correct and the commercialisation and the reports of high prices charged by the Chens and that parts of the material are not taught ouside the family is surprising. though probably more rubbish and propoganda that that seems to come with the territory.

[Walk the Torque]

Some have speculated that previous training in Hongquan may account for some of the differences between Yang family forms and Chen village forms, although it must be recognized as speculation, and speculation that tends to compare the Yang Cheng Fu large frame with the Chen village forms of today--in the frequent use of gongbu in the YCF form, for example.

I know this is not really the subject of the thread, but if you look at Du Yu Zhe's Chen style form which he learned from Chen Fake's father Chen Yanxi, it looks like a cross between Yang and Chen style. Lots of gong bu and facing straight. Draw your own conclusions. It should be noted that since standardized forms are a relatively recent thing, the Chen forms likely had as many variations as they had practitioners. The current standard form is Chen FaKe's interpretation, but his father and ancestors might have practiced it differently.

Hey Frank,

thanks for that; that was facinating footage. Most grateful

Conn