Yongnian: Center of Taijiquan?

[Ron Panunto]

Neither Dan Dochcarty or Wu Tunan should be cited as knowing anything about taijiquan history.

[baguamen22]

Neither Dan Dochcarty or Wu Tunan should be cited as knowing anything about taijiquan history.

How so?

Not that I believe them but I know little about them.

[AllanF]

More rubbish. Dans list of reccommended books.
http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/merchandis ... ading.html
Chen Style Taijiquan
Paul H Crompton
ISBN: 9622380166
Paul H Crompton
One of the first English language introductory guides to Chen style, quite ok. **buy.

Dan also is involved in the organisation with many Tai Chi chuan competitions on a European level including the British Open for many years where competitors from all styles of tai chi compete including Chen.

Rubbish you say! Well, i will let DD speak for himself...

RE Chen Taiji: "What about Chen style Tai Chi?

Oh yes, this amazing Taoist martial art with techniques such as 'Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar'! basically it's Shaolin Boxing with a bit of Tai Chi thrown in. I've written on this elsewhere. In brief, some members of the Chen Clan of Henan Province wanted to cash in on Tai Chi's popularity so they invented a false genealogy and put forward their mish-mash of Chen Family Pao Chui and Tai Chi as the original Tai Chi. China's leading Tai Chi historian Wu Tu-nan exploded this myth in 'A Research into Tai Chi Chuan' (written in Chinese and published in 1986) which describes his visit to the Chen family village in 1917."
Taken from http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... iator.html


RE Wang Peisheng: "Some people said I should go to Wang Pei-sheng to learn – a guy who spent 15 years plus in the Chinese gulag who taught form by acupuncture points ,,, give me a break – please." Taken from http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... quiem.html


RE Yang Chengpu, i admit that i cannot find the relevant article, so am prepared to concede that i maybe mistaken. Though something tells me i am not!

Personally i don't care one iota about DD whether he be good, bad or ugly. It matters not a jot to me. Only that if you are going to talk ill of others then you need to be prepared for people to by a little cynical when you talk. Furthermore i am aware of the work that DD has done for tajiquan in Europe and how it is through his, and others like him, efforts taiji has become popularized. But lets not be naive it was also to promote himself. (Which is just good marketing, again i don't take that away from him.) FWIW i began my taiji studies under Ian Cameron in Edinburgh many years ago (only for a very short time) and found him (IC) to be a very humble man and very down to earth. I never heard him say a bad word against anyone much less write about it! But all of this is way way off topic so someone bring us back!

[Bob Mnemos]

Rubbish you say! Well, i will let DD speak for himself...

RE Chen Taiji: "What about Chen style Tai Chi?

Oh yes, this amazing Taoist martial art with techniques such as 'Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounding Mortar'! basically it's Shaolin Boxing with a bit of Tai Chi thrown in. I've written on this elsewhere. In brief, some members of the Chen Clan of Henan Province wanted to cash in on Tai Chi's popularity so they invented a false genealogy and put forward their mish-mash of Chen Family Pao Chui and Tai Chi as the original Tai Chi. China's leading Tai Chi historian Wu Tu-nan exploded this myth in 'A Research into Tai Chi Chuan' (written in Chinese and published in 1986) which describes his visit to the Chen family village in 1917."
Taken from http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... iator.html

I've heard enough about Dan Docherty over the years to understand that he has taken Taijiquan and sort of morphed its history to agree with Dan himself. I bought some of Docherty's tapes once to see what he was doing and one of them had some video blurb at the front where he supposedly won some tournament in Hong Kong with his taiji after having only studied for 9 months. Problem is you can see in the video that he's doing typical kick-punch stuff so I don't know what he was thinking when he put that vid out.

One of the forums I'm on is a private Yang-style exclusive thing and in the archives is this piece written by Yang Jun (the grandson of Yang Cheng Fu) speaking about Yang Taiji things. I got permission from the forum owner to post this and since it's a good post I'm posting the whole thing. Notice the acknowledgement from Yang Jun that the Yang style is derived from the Chen style (I made it bold type). In other words, Docherty is full of it and doesn't know what he's talking about:

Hi everyone! Let me first express my thanks to everybody for their support of the web site. Special thanks also go to Jerry and Marco for their efforts on the site. I am sorry, my English is limited so I haven't been able to respond directly to your questions on the discussion board, but now I will try to answer some of the questions that have been raised.

At the age of six, my grandfather began studying Tai Chi from his father, alongside his elder brothers, and from this early age established a firm foundation. Although he was only ten when his father passed away, under the guiding discipline of his mother (Yang Hou Zhuqing, died 1985), and along with his elder brothers, he persisted continuously in his practice. When he grew to adulthood my great grandmother handed down to him and his second elder brother (Yang Zhenji) the hand-written manuscripts of Tai Chi classics and personal notes left behind by my great grandfather Yang Chengfu, helping my grandfather to greatly improve his understanding of the art and its principles. Later, whenever my grandfather returned home to see his mother, he engaged in discussion and research and exchanged insights with his second brother (Yang Zhenji) and younger brother (Yang Zhenguo). Even my great grandmother, on observing my grandfathers Tai Chi form, said it was very like his father's. In the end, my grandfather's present attainments are the result of his seventy years of unremitting training.

As to questions regarding the relationship of Fu Zhongwen to the Yang family, Yang Jianhou's second son Zhaoyuan (Yang Chengfu's second older brother, who died when quite young) had a daughter named Yang Cong who married a man from Yong Nian named Zhao Shutang. Zhao Shutang had a son named Zhao Bin and a daughter named Zhao Guizhen. Zhao Guizhen later married a man from Yong Nian named Fu Zhongwen. When Fu Zhongwen went to Shanghai to work in a textile factory, because he was a relative, he lived for a short time in the household of my great grandfather (Yang Chengfu). During the period that Yang Chengfu was in Shanghai, Fu Zhongwen learned Tai Chi along with others who were disciples of Yang Chengfu. Fu Zhongwen, because he was a relative by marriage, called Yang Chengfu 'San Lao Ye' or 'third maternal grandfather' and always referred to my grandfather and his brothers as 'jiu jiu' or ' maternal uncle'. Fu Zhongwen's relationship to the Yang family was that of a relative rather than a disciple. Later in Shanghai Fu Zhongwen practiced diligently and worked in a very positive way to promote and spread traditional Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. He had students all over China as well as all round the world. Fu Zhongwen was a grandmaster who made huge contributions to the development of traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

Li Tianji and Li Bingci are both good friends of my grandfather and the three went to Singapore together. Li Tianji had learned Tai Chi from his own father and Sun Lutang (originator of the Sun style). Li Bingci is a representative of Wu style Tai Chi Chuan. Neither Li Tianji nor Li Bingci ever met Yang Chengfu. The three spent four months together in Singapore (Li Tianji was only in Singapore one month) having been invitated by the Singapore Chinese Martial Arts Association. Each taught a different type of Tai Chi (Li Tianji taught 24-move simplified Tai Chi, Li Bingci taught Wu style, and my grandfather taught Yang style). In the event more people attended my grandfather's classes. That someone would guess that my grandfathers current level of attainment is because he studied from these two men and doubt that my grandfather learned from his own father from an early age for nearly five years is astonishing to me. Li Tianji has already passed away, but Li Bingci is still living in Beijing. I wish the person who wrote this would get some actual information from Li Bingci or the Singapore Chinese Martial Arts Association and only then post the results of their research on the discussion board. Since I began traveling abroad with my grandfather to teach Tai Chi in 1987, I have never heard of Michael Goon (Gu?). I would like sometime to have the good fortune to meet this person and try to clarify what that was all about. Even more, I wish that people who suggest this sort of thing apply a diligent, responsible attitude to their pronouncements, and not put out such completely unsupported fantasies.

Yang Chengfu had lots of students during his lifetime. Some of the main ones were Dong Yingjie, Chen Weiming, Niu Chunming, Cui Lizhi, Tian Zhaolin, Chen Yanlin, Zhang Qinglin, Zhang Qinlin, Li Yaxuan, Zheng Manqing. In Yang Chengfu's book "Tai Chi Chuan Applications" the other person in the photos with Yang Chengfu was Zhang Qinglin. Because the disciples of Yang Chengfu had mostly previously learned some form of external martial arts, because the amount of time they learned with Yang Chengfu differed, and furthermore each added to their art what they themselves had discovered, they all ended up doing the form somewhat differently. I think that everything is in a process of continual development. If there were no development Yang style would not have evolved from Chen style and Wu style would never have evolved from Yang style. Still the measure of the success or failure of any development depends in part on popular acceptance; no matter how much advance is made in the development of the Tai Chi form, if no one learns it, the development cannot be successful. Overall, those whose form is most similar to the form taught by Yang Chengfu are in the main Zhang Qinlin and Fu Zhongwen in Shanghai and Zhao Bin in Xi An.

As to the matter of Yang Fukui, I am just now trying to contact the descendants of Yang Zhensheng and at the same time I am also trying to get in touch with Yang Fukui himself to resolve some questions. Until we reach some conclusions, I beg your indulgence, I'm not able to answer this sort of question.
Now for my parent's generation. The Yang family hasn't produced enough offspring. If we take the Yang Chengfu branch of the family (the other branches either didn't produce any male heirs or they were scattered and we have lost contact with them), though the eldest son Yang Shouzhong had a son, during the war when Japan invaded China he was blown up by the Japanese in Guangxi province. The second son, Yang Zhenji, had no children. Although the third son Yang Zhenduo and the fourth son Yang Zhenguo both had two sons, the time when they might have studied Tai Chi happened to coincide with the famine which occurred in the 60's and the period of the Cultural Revolution, and later because of career choices available they weren't able to become professional Tai Chi teachers. So this generation, though they practiced Tai Chi, did not become teachers. When we come to the sixth generation, I am the oldest. Because of some social conditions, since I was three months old I have lived with my grandparents, which provided a rather good environment for me to learn Tai Chi. And though I know perhaps I am not really clever enough, in the movements I have tried my best to imitate my grandfather and to express the round, smooth, large and elegant qualities of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan, and as a member of the Yang family I have striven to the best of my ability to promote this marvelous art.

Tai Chi Chuan first came to public notice because of Yang Luchan and through the efforts of Yang Banhou, Yang Jianhou, and Yang Chengfu it has spread throughout China and the world, causing countless practitioners to gain physical and mental health through their training in Tai Chi. This is a contribution that the Yang family has made to the world, and because of this the Yang family has earned a measure of respect from all those who practice Tai Chi. Tai Chi Chuan is a type of Chinese martial art. Those who practice Chinese martial arts should strive after martial arts morality. Respecting our elders and being kind to those younger, humility and deference are virtues prized by the Chinese people. Recently on the website some have spoken in a way which was disrespectful. I suspect that those who spoke disrespectfully belong to a younger generation than my grandfather, and quite possibly they are two or three generations younger than him. If you speak without respect of your teacher's generation, or worse your teacher's teacher's generation, or still worse the generation prior to that, one can only wonder about the state of your martial arts morality, and whether this is because your teacher did not instruct you on this or you didn't take it to heart.

The Yang family, from Yang Luchan onward to Yang Jianhou and Yang Chengfu, have been famed for being gentle. Precisely because they approached people humbly were they able to entice so many to study. My grandfather has always tried to measure up to his father, to be humble and deferential. He has expended a lifetime of effort to spread and promote his family's art of Tai Chi Chuan. In Shanxi province alone his association has 30,000 members. Throughout China he has taught countless numbers of students. Who knows how many people have been stimulated by him to improve their health. He often says "Would that Tai Chi Chuan can contribute to the health and longevity of mankind" to encourage himself to greater efforts in this enterprise. I feel so much pride and respect to have this kind of grandfather. Practicing martial arts is a way to strengthen the body, and so I am doubly respectful of anyone who practices. Still I cannot countenance anyone's disrespect for the Yang family. In Chinese we have a saying "Beyond this mountain are (even higher) mountains, beyond this person there are (even greater) people' . I have no fear of being defeated because as a descendant of the Yang family, the spirit of the family is still there.

Yang Jun

Bob

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I bought some of Docherty's tapes once to see what he was doing and one of them had some video blurb at the front where he supposedly won some tournament in Hong Kong with his taiji after having only studied for 9 months. Problem is you can see in the video that he's doing typical kick-punch stuff so I don't know what he was thinking when he put that vid out.
SNIP

Oh God, here we go again. He competed twice: Both in the SEAsian Open Leitai championship. At his second outing, held in Kuala Lumpur in 1980, he won the open weight division. Chinese martial artists from all over the region fought, full contact, on leitais. Dan, who was a HK cop at the time, trained under Cheng Ting-hung - who was the only Taiji school who was regularly represanted at these championships (which preceded Pride, K1, UFC, and sanda). The other schools that did well tended to be Monkey (a strong fighting school in HK at the time) Choy Lay Fut (Tat Mau Wong was on the same team as Dan: I think Wong was runner up in his division) and Cheng's "Wudang" Taiji. A lot of the styles form around the region, such as the Malaysia team at teh time, had brought in MT trainers to prepare them for the rigours of full contact.

Maybe it was just "kick punch" stuff, but they were the only Taiji (not Taiji and Shaolin, or Taiji and HsingI and Bagua - just Taiji) school to win a fighting rep around the region. Cheng also met leading masters in HK and was invited to Japan to teach. AFAIK no other school of Taiji, in modern times, has the sort of rep Cheng's school had in the 1980s. And Dan was one of the leading fighters in that school (and his European students do well in PH and sanda even today).

I think, 30 years later, we have a much higher standard of full contact - notably sanda and MMA - but at the time, that was the only game in town, and Dan won it. I disagree with a lot of what Dan has written, but don't fault his experience and skill. His PH is about the best I have ever experienced.

[Ian]

Neither Dan Dochcarty or Wu Tunan should be cited as knowing anything about taijiquan history.

Why would you need to be a great historian if you were a great fighter?

[Andy_S]

Ian:

I take it you are talking about Dan there, not Wu....?

[Ian]

Yeah. Didn't notice Wu in there.

[velalavela]

Hi, I brought in the Dan Docherty qoute about Chen Style, so Mea Culpa.

I did becasue I was interested in Tom's post (below)

[b]To respond to another question in your initial post, the most common MA I've heard that YLC practiced before going to Chenjiagou is some variant of Hongquan. I've read that Hongquan is probably what Wu Yuxiang and his two brothers practiced as well. Some have speculated that previous training in Hongquan may account for some of the differences between Yang family forms and Chen village forms, although it must be recognized as speculation, and speculation that tends to compare the Yang Cheng Fu large frame with the Chen village forms of today--in the frequent use of gongbu in the YCF form, for example.[/

I read Dan Docherty's book "Complete Tai Chi Chuan' a few years back. Quite an interesting read....I'm sure there is more upto date research out there but anyway he had the reverse theory.

That Tai Chi came to Chen Village by way of Jiang fa and Wang Zong Yue. He seems to say Chen Chang Xing learnt Tai Chi from one of these two. Then Yang Lu Chan learnt his tai Chi from him.

His idea of Chen Style seems to be that later this Tai Chi was mixed with the Chen's Village Style Shaolin.

I am curious to know more about those two : Jiang Fa and Wang Zong Yue....are they real verifiable Internal martial artists of that era?

It does beg the question however, why would they wander into Chen Vilage and teach Chen Chang Xing their unbeatable art? Leave and not teach anyone else?

His book does retell various apocryphl stories of challanges not met or lost by Yang Lu Chan's sons, Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Chen Fu. I'm inclined to say interesting but nobody is unbeatable all the time forever are they?
To me this is a bit like saying you are only the 3rd best fighter in the regiment, but if the regiment is the SAS you are sill pretty good arent you?

he makes a bit of Song Shuming beating Wu chien Chuan and then becoming his teacher, but is this really verifiable? I think I read either YM or Stephen yan say Song Shuming taught Chi Gung and was not a Tai Chi fighter on this forum? More info please?

As for so publicly criticising well known masters? Not really my scene, and that seems like going for notoriety for PR sake moer than anything. I think anyone would have beeen more than happy to have been Wang Peishing's student from what you see of his skills on video.

However,
Docherty did fight full contact at two East Asian games and got his gold, so he did show he can walk the talk.

Regards

[Little Bai]

That Tai Chi came to Chen Village by way of Jiang fa and Wang Zong Yue. He seems to say Chen Chang Xing learnt Tai Chi from one of these two. Then Yang Lu Chan learnt his tai Chi from him.

His idea of Chen Style seems to be that later this Tai Chi was mixed with the Chen's Village Style Shaolin.

I am curious to know more about those two : Jiang Fa and Wang Zong Yue....are they real verifiable Internal martial artists of that era?

It does beg the question however, why would they wander into Chen Vilage and teach Chen Chang Xing their unbeatable art? Leave and not teach anyone else?

The idea of Chen Changxing learning a style from Jiang Fa completely different from what the Chen-family practised before him, during his time and afterwards was put forward by Wu Tunan. Mr. Docherty styles himself a scholar, but as far as I can tell, he merely copied whatever Wu thought up, so it's not his theory at all. It is perplexing though that Chen would not teach his own family (but some stranger named Yang Luchan) a style that was - supposedly - superior to anything the Chen-family has ever come across. The story conflicts clearly with the traditional Chinese notion of always putting the family first. Then again, this way the outstanding abilities of Yang Luchan could be pointed out even more, so the story obviously served not only to take the Chen family out of the picture but also to increase Yang Luchan's fame.
That does not mean that Wang Zongyue and Jiang Fa are pure fiction. Both persons are difficult to trace, though. The Chen family knows a person by the name of Jiang Fa (or Ba?) who might have had an impact on the development of their martial art tradition, but this Jiang was a contemporary of Chen Wangting (several generations earlier than Chen Changxing). The problem with Wang Zongyue and Jiang Fa seems to be that all the information about them stems from later sources, around the turn of the century, if I'm not mistaken. Wang Zongyue is supposedly the author of one the Taiji classics and the link between the original tradition of Neijiaquan (as reported by Huang Zongxi and Huang Baijia) and modern times. But they seem to be missing several generations between Wang Zhengnan (contemporary of the aforementioned Huangs) and Wang Zongyue. I'm not sure when and how Jiang Fa came into the picture though... it's all quite muddled up, lots of information surfacing decades if not centuries afterwards, painting a clear picture where there might never have been one in the first place.

[neijia_boxer]

on the topic of Yongnian- Fu Zhong Wen who is from Yongnian mentioned this when he formed the Yongnian association 65 years ago-

Yongnian Taijiquan motto

Yongnian has 3 meanings: 1.Everprogressive 2. Long life 3.Yang family home county village

Zhin- Diligence- Hard work and effort is prerequisite for skilled development. Daily practice on a regular basic will ultimately be rewarded by beneficial results.

Hen- Perseverance-It is important that a long and enduring sense of purpose be cultivated. A sense of purpose combined with regular daily practice will serve to achieve that purpose.

Li- Respect- Respect for your master, teacher, and fellow man is paramount. Deal with others in taking consideration their backgrounds and in the light of their expectations. Mutual respect serves to enhance a sense of community and solidarity in a society where individuals treat each other with respect.

Zhen- Sincerity- Sincerity in attitude or motivation is a prerequisite for learning Taijiquan. In order to achieve, a genuine resolve to pursue your goal must exist. Deal with others sincerely if you want them to reciprocate. Maintain sincerity in the fore of your dealing with others and you will achieve a smooth flow in relationships.

[baguamen22]

it's all quite muddled up, lots of information surfacing decades if not centuries afterwards, painting a clear picture where there might never have been one in the first place.

Which makes us suspect that on purpose lending to idea that they may be made up persona's.

[Leishen]

Mr Doherty may have been there and won some fights, but this doesn't say a thing about his Taiji abilities.
Everybody with a fighting attitude, a fearsome character or with some streetfighting experience may go to fight in some tournament having a matial art's style name (taiji, xingyi, baji, whatever.....) as a cover to belong somewhere etc, and indeed to win some fights. So what? Should these victories be attributed to Taijiquan because he said so?

Personally, from what I have seen from this line, I don't like it, considering some European students too.
I have the same feeling for the videos that I have seen of him.

A man who doesn't respect anybody other than himself and speak for others without ever knowing them in person (or without "touching" them for what it worths in the world of martial arts) is not of a great importance in my worldview.

I am with Allanf and Bob Mnemos in this.

[king-kong]

Indeed a lot of uninformed waffle and taking things out of context. If you are going to go for the jugular you better do better up to date research and keep an open mind. Prejudice and misinformation go hand in hand.
Back to Yongnian.

[velalavela]

Andy,

To respond to another question in your initial post, the most common MA I've heard that YLC practiced before going to Chenjiagou is some variant of Hongquan. I've read that Hongquan is probably what Wu Yuxiang and his two brothers practiced as well. Some have speculated that previous training in Hongquan may account for some of the differences between Yang family forms and Chen village forms, although it must be recognized as speculation, and speculation that tends to compare the Yang Cheng Fu large frame with the Chen village forms of today--in the frequent use of gongbu in the YCF form, for example.

I'll have to start again then. (The name Docherty certainly seems to polarise Tai Chi people). I was more interested in the comparison of Yang and Chen styles.

There is some speculation that some of the differences between Yang Family forms and Chen Family forms is the oposite to the theory put forward by Tom above. That Chen has been influenced by their own Chen Family 'Shaolin' art.

I guess as Tai Chi is a Northern art and it must also have been influenecd by other Northern Kung Fu. If you practice Northern Shaolin/Chang Chuan you can see there are similar postures in both Yang or Chen anyway. ( And any Chinese martial art)

It was very interesting to see the older Chen style video posting. You can indeed see some more Yang like stances. I have a good friend who is a grand student of Hong Jun-sheng (He was a student of Chen Fake). So we sometimes compare the styles and push hands.
I'll have to show him this video. So thanks again for posting it