Three Vectors Simultaniously

[Walk the Torque]

Hi All,

I've been playing with this for a while now and was interested in thoughts of the essembled multidudes.

When training for king hits or king hit jin in every movement, I have come to a point where I am looking for power on three distinct vectors, depending of course on the kind of strike I'm executing at the time. Lets say, If I am throwing a bear/hook/bitch slap to the side of the face; I have become aware that it has the most power when trying to balance the upward/inward/forward jins simultaniously.

Initially this felt like getting the "crack" of the whip together, but the more I work on this concept the lighter, speedier and more solid on impact it feels.

Do you guys have similar experiences?

I have more to add to this but wanted to get the ball rolling.

[C.J.Wang]

king hit jin? Is it in Cantonese?

[Walk the Torque]

king hit jin? Is it in Cantonese?

Ha Ha! I've lived a sheltered life

[Ron Panunto]

What the hell is "king hit jin"?

[Walk the Torque]

Seriously!?

OK, all I ment was a strong strike. I am suprised this term is not more widely known.

[Bao]

I think one of the very keys to attain some awesome striking power is really to work in a threedimensional manner, or working with three different directions of movement at the same time - with "three force vectors simultaneously". In CIMA you mostly work with a forward movement, a horizontal movement and a vertical movement at the same time.

If you look at Piquan or brush knee, you will find the same form of fundamental mechanics. The whole body will move straight forward, with a step or a shift of stance. The back hand (or the left part of the body if striking with the right hand) will be most important for driving the horizontal movement, the body will turn and twist. And there is a sinking movement with the use of the spine and torso.

The straight movement must be really straight, like shooting an arrow, the twisting movement must be forced to an extreme twisting movement, and the spine must truly curve or raise depending on what kind of strike. The individual movements must be used together. If one movement comes after the other, is no good - the movements must work in unison as a whole. The use of the vectors will increase the force of each direction of movement. Together, the total movement of the whole body structure will be very strong. The strike will not loose speed or movement upon impact, as the horizontal and vertical movements will support and drive the forward movement.

When practicing any kind of strike, one should first take everything apart, separate each movement and make sure to over do each and one of them, working with an extreme movement in each direction. Then you can focus on two of them together, and when you manage to coordinate them , you add the third one without forgetting the first two of them.

When working with three different directions of movement, or force vectors, it is extremely important to practice very relaxed and methodologically. You can practice with quite a slow speed and when you coordinate the movements, you should add speed. If you don know how to relax and breath naturally, you will not be able to make full use of your body and you will work against yourself. It should all look very easy, effortless and feel the same way.

And btw, excellent qinna will work the same way. You should not force your opponent in one direction only, but in three directions at one and the same time . . .

[shawnsegler]

Here you go. From the adam hsu thread.

Adam Hsu explains: The word dong means the external movement of the body such as bending, jumping, crouching, kneeling, etc; while the word yun means the internal movement of the body such as breathing, circulation, or mind control, etc. ''The external dong and internal yun should go hand-in-hand together and cannot be separated. The wushu teaching passed down over the past several thousand years is the complete training of external and internal together.''

Adam Hsu suggests that it is better to start wushu training from childhood. ''Wushu trains not only ''uni-directional focus'' but the ''multi-dimensional awareness'' as well. The practitioner needs to expand his attention to all other parts of his body while focusing on his hand for a punch. ''When he punches or kicks, he extends his attention to the three-dimensional space surrounding him including front and back, up and down, left and right.''

Adam Hsu says that ''multi-dimensional awareness'' is the ability most needed by people in the modern world. ''The internal training for the brain, the mentality, and the mind will enable the kids to handle challenges in the future.''

[Bao]

Here you go. From the adam hsu thread.

The practitioner needs to expand his attention to all other parts of his body while focusing on his hand for a punch. ''When he punches or kicks, he extends his attention to the three-dimensional space surrounding him including front and back, up and down, left and right.''

Adam Hsu says that ''multi-dimensional awareness'' is the ability most needed by people in the modern world. ''The internal training for the brain, the mentality, and the mind will enable the kids to handle challenges in the future.''

I think it is an interesting quote, but here we speak about actually "doing" something, not just "thinking". Awereness is not enough. There is a great difference here. And this is where much of the problem with IMA lies. Many people have great difficulties turning thoughts into action, to do instead of just think.

[shawnsegler]

Well, of course but the point is you have to have awareness of your body before you can control it to the extent to do anything...especially without any distracting thoughts.

The average guy off the street doesn't have that awareness. The ability to extrapolate a movement in a smooth three dimensional manner with full body power and all that mostly takes the work of many repetitions of that movement. Getting to the point where you can start just extrapolating force vectors and are able to keep everything in harmony along them takes more practice and precision yet.

But you should feel it first, right? Hence the slowness and all that and then being able to manifest the correct jin.

S- who's been having to go back to basics for awhile for just that reason.

[shawnsegler]

Plus, feeling is your ability to feel those vectors as shapes. That's where you get burning that stuff into your nervous system, right?

Best,

S

[Jingang]

I'd say it's more like 3 powers generating movement and 3 powers manifestation at impact point.
Circular -> spiral -> Centrifugal


It's impossible for one point to have 3 vectors at the same time cause they are combined into one vector.

[Bao]

Well, of course but the point is you have to have awareness of your body before you can control it to the extent to do anything...especially without any distracting thoughts.

The average guy off the street doesn't have that awareness. The ability to extrapolate a movement in a smooth three dimensional manner with full body power and all that mostly takes the work of many repetitions of that movement. Getting to the point where you can start just extrapolating force vectors and are able to keep everything in harmony along them takes more practice and precision yet.

But you should feel it first, right? Hence the slowness and all that and then being able to manifest the correct jin.

Well, sure you are right. As long as one can take that step from thinking into doing.

I'd say it's more like 3 powers generating movement and 3 powers manifestation at impact point.
Circular -> spiral -> Centrifugal


It's impossible for one point to have 3 vectors at the same time cause they are combined into one vector.

Vectors, or three directions of movement, call it what you want. I am not sure about what terminology is the best or correct. But I dont agree that it should be combined into one vector. It is three separated movement, using different parts of the body, which are combined in one movement. The 3 differentforce generators are kept individually apart, even if they work together.

In the picture, which is interesting, you forget about both forward and vertical movement of the body/trunk/spine. So it is not similar to the method I wrote about. Maybe Walk The Torque or someone else can comment that pic better?

[Jingang]

Well, it's pretty impossible to show 3D in 2D picture. I agree that there are two more powers that does not appear in the picture (The picture is from an article about these 3 basic powers).
There should also be a downwards power (from sinking or other) and forward (from stepping or leg pushing).
Moreover I think that the body's motion is very complicated (even more when one does internal arts) so it's pretty impossible to explain all that with words or even pictures.

[charles]

Moreover I think that the body's motion is very complicated (even more when one does internal arts) so it's pretty impossible to explain all that with words or even pictures.

An elastic object moving in four dimensions (length, width, height and time) is indeed difficult to model. One can create many models in the attempt to describe what is happening, each with its own explanation.

[shawnsegler]

Well between an intimate knowledge of power going up, power going down and power on the horizontal plane you can always plot an exact point in space. Initially your mind bops back and forth. Up, analyze, down, analyze to the side...analyze. You train it to move fluildly by burning whatever shapes, spirals into your nervous system and you learn to and then extrapolating off of your known data...when I say known I mean known. If you can feel the ground through your body and have the reference of your skeleton, and gravity and a feel for centrifigal and centripetal forces as well as spiral shapes burned into your nervous system then you don't need to constantly reference and analyze. You've taken that part out of the picture, and you can wire your brain to make that assumption and do those calculations spontaneously. This should give you a pretty good ratio of thought to nerve pulse to actual action.

Best,

S