Why does karate style frustrate boxing style in mma?

[everything]

Question I had coming off the loose and free vs. tight bagua thread, where big and open vs. small and closed pros and cons are not clear to me. Some of the mma journalists will claim that someone's, usually Lyoto Machida's, karate style will frustrate the fighters who primarily use boxing as stand-up. I'm not really sure why they say that other than that they seem to mean a slightly longer range is used by the karate fighters who can keep outside boxing range. I suspect there's some detail I'm missing, though. So:
1. what is it that makes this work, if true (edit: or is the Machida example simply that he's individually better, and this karate vs. boxing idea isn't true at all)?
2. would you relate this example to big/open vs. small/closed for fighting/sparring?

[neijia_boxer]

it probably has everything to do with fighting an unfamiliar style. most mma people train to fight wrestler, bjj, judo and muay thai type fighters and when you go fight a karate guy it's different that what you trained for. For example- Evan tanner was a self taught fighter, he didnt know how to throw good punches, when a muay thai guy was trying to teach him punching- he was so bad and unorthodox it made him quite good since the other guy was accoustommed to sparring orthodox punchers.

same goes for this guy kareem at our school, we tried teaching him how to throw good jabs and crosses but when he spars with his uncanny unorthodox style it actually works and so the teacher gave up on him and let him do his own unorthodx style of punching. he actually won some boxing event in Lebanon and won 3 fights.

[Josealb]

Well, Ive seen many Karate guys...but Machida is simply Machida. Hes ahead of the game.

If you put an average Karate guy on a ring with a hell of a good boxer with natural talent and lots of fight experience, the tables would be turned i think. Unfamiliarity with a method can only go so far.

[CaliG]

I too believe it has more to do with fighting an unorthodox fighter. For example look at Chuck Lidell he's beat some of the best and I believe that has a lot to do with the fact that it's hard to prepare for a fighter like Lidell because most MMA fighters don't fight that way, just look at his wide open guard.

I also think that as time goes on more and more MMA fighters are developing their own style that works well under MMA rules.

[Kurt Robbins]

I have never sparred with a Karate based practitioner so I really can't comment on the particular style differences. Although the Lidell / Rampage fights are good example of an orthodox fighter having the edge on an unorthodox fighter.
Angles and unpredictability definatly play a factor even in orthodox styles, for example; Spencer Fisher has been coming to our Gym (AMC) and he plays these really sharp unorthodox angles with orthodox strikes that are very effective . Even Amoung orhtordox fighters unorthodox techniques become advanced techniques which advanced practitioners recognize and utilize.
On a side note South Paw is considered unorthodox.

[everything]

I am getting the sense there is actually no pattern attributable to style - the comment by a writer is just a convenience that sounds good for a story "oh so and so's karate is frustrating". It's more that a talented individual can find holes in the others' defenses and exploit them successfully - the attacks may be "unorthodox", which is why it works against "orthodox" - orthodox means what people would expect but that also translates to predictability. Nobody could've predicted how Fedor dismantled Sylvia in only 36 seconds, yet he said afterwards "I did everything I wanted to do", almost hinting that events went according to plan but he is too smart to just come out and say that. Everyone could predict Sylvia's plan with his superior reach and pretty much nothing else.

[everything]

I also think that as time goes on more and more MMA fighters are developing their own style that works well under MMA rules.

I sure hope that's true - we're going to see some much more entertaining bouts.

[DeusTrismegistus]

If you have never seen a technique before it can be very difficult to defend against it. As we say at my school, you have to see a technique hundreds of times before you can learn how to deal with it. I remember years ago one of our blackbelts would throw these powerful chopping leg kicks at me. At first I couldn't do anything about them. After getting hit a few hundred times I was able to start to move out of the way, after some more my timing and everything got better so I was rarely getting hit by them. You also need to see different comboes. You get used to certain techniques following others and when a combo you have never seen before is thrown at you then you usually get caught.

Within the progression of recognizing techniques and learning to deal with them you also improve your own technique. At first you may be really sloppy when you start dodging or blocking a particular strike or combo. Over time as you do it more your timing gets better, you get more precise, and you can stay in a good position.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, Ive seen many Karate guys...but Machida is simply Machida. Hes ahead of the game.

If you put an average Karate guy on a ring with a hell of a good boxer with natural talent and lots of fight experience, the tables would be turned i think. Unfamiliarity with a method can only go so far.

Reply]
If you put an "Average" ANYONE in with a hell of a good ANYONE, the Hell of a Good guy will beat the average guy just about everytime.

This is my big problem with the whole (hopefully outdated) MMA vs TMA argument. It pits thier best against mediocre or has been TCMA's, then proclaims victory.

If you want to see a fair example, you need to compare guys at the same level.

[Josealb]

Royal,

Thats what i meant. Doesn't matter who does what...any style can frustrate any style because it depends on the guy.

If you have never seen a technique before it can be very difficult to defend against it. As we say at my school, you have to see a technique hundreds of times before you can learn how to deal with it.

This is simply Bull, Dojo thinking. If you reason like this, then the only explanation for an expert IMA guy with years of experience who can counter whatever you throw at them, is that he has seen that exact move hundreds of times? Behind 100 techniques there is only a handful of principles. All you have to do is nail those principles, and you pretty much nail everything that can be born out of them. Gotta simplify.

[mixjourneyman]

Royal,

Thats what i meant. Doesn't matter who does what...any style can frustrate any style because it depends on the guy.

If you have never seen a technique before it can be very difficult to defend against it. As we say at my school, you have to see a technique hundreds of times before you can learn how to deal with it.

This is simply Bull, Dojo thinking. If you reason like this, then the only explanation for an expert IMA guy with years of experience who can counter whatever you throw at them, is that he has seen that exact move hundreds of times? Behind 100 techniques there is only a handful of principles. All you have to do is nail those principles, and you pretty much nail everything that can be born out of them. Gotta simplify.

IPPON!!!!!!

[CaliG]

I also think that as time goes on more and more MMA fighters are developing their own style that works well under MMA rules.

I sure hope that's true - we're going to see some much more entertaining bouts.

Watch this season's Ultimate Fighter, there's a lot of good fights out there.

But I still prefer Pride rules, this whole thing of no kicking a downed man and no kicking from the guard has taken a big part of the game out...just look at Sak's fights.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Royal,

Thats what i meant. Doesn't matter who does what...any style can frustrate any style because it depends on the guy.

If you have never seen a technique before it can be very difficult to defend against it. As we say at my school, you have to see a technique hundreds of times before you can learn how to deal with it.

This is simply Bull, Dojo thinking. If you reason like this, then the only explanation for an expert IMA guy with years of experience who can counter whatever you throw at them, is that he has seen that exact move hundreds of times? Behind 100 techniques there is only a handful of principles. All you have to do is nail those principles, and you pretty much nail everything that can be born out of them. Gotta simplify.

You know what. You just pissed me off. My school is anything but a fucking mcdojo and you are an arrogant asshole to imply such.

Yes there does come a point where a person can deal with just about anything thrown at them. Are you going to deny the learning curve though? I don't care who the fuck you are if you have never seen a technique before your response will be less than optimal. This is the whole fucking reason people should go out and fight other styles so they get EXPERIENCE SEEING AND FEELING THE TECHNIQUES. Now where do you think the ability to deal with anything comes from? It comes from experience learning over time how to deal with various techniques and extrapolation based on principles. That takes time doing exactly what i fucking described.

Next time you should think things through before you say something is Bull that is based on almost 2 decades of personal experience.

[Josealb]

got common sense?

What you just wrote in no way contradicts or explains what i said. Im still right. And thats a perfect dojo response right there.

The only experience you have shown here is in youtube analysis. Try to discuss in a smarter way, without insults.

[Brady]

Behind 100 techniques there is only a handful of principles. All you have to do is nail those principles, and you pretty much nail everything that can be born out of them. Gotta simplify.

Well put.