Why does karate style frustrate boxing style in mma?

[everything]

Watch this season's Ultimate Fighter, there's a lot of good fights out there.

Been missing most of it but will have to check it out again. Last part I saw was Junie getting all pissed off his teammate got his ass kicked and some kind of voiceover of "will Junie get the boot? ... watch the next episode..."

But I still prefer Pride rules, this whole thing of no kicking a downed man and no kicking from the guard has taken a big part of the game out...just look at Sak's fights.

Sak was the man. I haven't followed the rule differences. There's no upkicks? Man, that answers one of my other questions. There is so much armchair analysis stuff of - "huh, why didn't they do such and such?"

youtube analysis

Lol, that's where I'm getting this question of supposed karate vs. boxing from. Youtube. No boxing or karate experience. However, experience + youtube analysis is a great, fun thing. youtube analysis - just fun

[CaliG]

I'm not sure what the rules are exactly but basically they took out that whole thing where a guy one guy is on the ground and the other guy is standing and they're trying to kick each other in the head.

Also if one knee touches the ground you can't knee or kick the guy in the head. So you'll see fighters put a knee down so the ref will rescue them.

Not to mention you can't knee a guy if you have him pinned, at least not in the head, not sure about the body but I think when you have rules like that people change their whole game.

Rampage used to knee guys on the ground when he had them pinned in Pride but you don't see him do that in the UFC.

Getting back to unorthodox fighters frustrating their opponents, that's basically what Royce was .

[Waterway]

I use to box as a youngster. I have went to about half a dozen karate classes too (Mostly Shotokan, and I checked out a Wado Ryu club too).

What with advent of the World Karate Federation (both clubs I went to were members of WKF in some shape or form) and the push to get karate in to the Olympics, most of the kumite I saw in karate resembled semi-contact kickboxing. It was becoming more and more generic, a uniform standard of Kumite that wasn't using a lot of what was taught in Kihon and Kata. If I were interested purely in the Kumite aspect of the Karate I did, I may as well have went to a kickboxing club instead. It would've been much of a muchness.

As has been mentioned though, it really depends on the abilities of the combatants. A lot of people in martial arts use their training to give themelves an identity e.g. "I'm a grappler, hence I am good at this" or "I'm a TKD guy, hence I good at this". People believe these things, even though the may not be true.

The problem is that when you look to something else to assign you an identity, you aren't looking at your real self. You aren't facing up to the areas that you lack, or your own shortcomings as an individual.

It would be better if people focused on the individuals, rather than believing their identity (and capability as a person) is created by doing a certain combat sport.

[everything]

The problem is that when you look to something else to assign you an identity, you aren't looking at your real self. You aren't facing up to the areas that you lack, or your own shortcomings as an individual.

that's a good side point. as a middle-aged, mature (i think) person, i don't *think* i have this issue. but it's an issue of both adolescence and adults and goes into consumption of whatever - i have an identity because i identify with a brand of shoe, car, sport, team, etc. - pretty stupid, really. still, as a recreational hobbyist, i do currently think "i'm more a grappler" as i'm not learning striking.

[DeusTrismegistus]

got common sense?

What you just wrote in no way contradicts or explains what i said. Im still right. And thats a perfect dojo response right there.

The only experience you have shown here is in youtube analysis. Try to discuss in a smarter way, without insults.

You are not right.

Quite simply the only thing that allows a very experienced martial artist to react in an efficient way to moves he has never seen before is years of experience learning to deal with a wide variety of moves and intuitively extrapolating an efficient response from his prior experience.

When a person is sparring or fighting and they do not have that expience, how do they learn? They don't just magically react perfectly. There is a learning curve. First you learn to recognize the technique. Usually you can't react to it or react very inefficiently. However you have to learn how to see it. Once you learn how to see it then you can begin to learn how to avoid it, etc. When people first experience roundhouse kicks while sparring their best reaction is to step backwards to get out of the way. As they get more confident they learn to step to the side to stay closer while still taking the power out of the kick. More efficient and more difficult. Then they learn to step straight in or in at an angle, getting in front of the kick and in range to make a very effective counter. It a process. Each technique will have a variety of effective reponses and many overlap. Additionally only by experience seeing thousands of kicks and punches thrown at you will you be able to tell exactly what the range is of the specific technique they are throwing, what target they are aiming at, what they plan to follow up with, which way they are stepping, all from minor adjustments in their body. Once you have developed an effective response to a variety of techniques that effectively covers the pallete of martial arts techniques, then its much easier to spontaeously react effectively to a new technique. Even so optimal reactions to a specific technique in a spontaneous environment only come from seeing, feeling, and interacting with a particular move many times. Principles are only really understood from experience reacting with many different techniques. Anything else is mental masturbation.

Now I am not saying as you seem to think that you have to practice against every concievable technique to be able to defend against it. I am saying that you have to learn how to deal with specific techniques before you have jumping off point for your principles. A crescent kick and a hook kick are different techniques but you can deal with them the same way, a front ball kick and a side thrust kick can be dealt with in nearly the same way. I palm strike and a straight punch are pretty much the same and can be dealt with the same, a ridge hand and a haymaker. If you can't block a straight punch then how can you block a palm strike though? I can sit someone down and explain to him all the prinicple in the world but he won't become a fighter without practicing against a living person, throwing actual techniques, and learning how to deal with them in a spontaneous environment.

[Josealb]

...Quite simply the only thing that allows a very experienced martial artist to react in an efficient is years of experience learning to deal with a wide variety of moves and intuitively extrapolating an efficient response from his prior experience...

...only by experience seeing thousands of kicks and punches thrown at you.....

..Principles are only really understood from experience reacting with many different techniques...

.

Again, Bull and dojo thinking. Do you even know what a principle is in IMA? how a specific body method is developed? the amount of time you have to drill it to ingrain the method deeply into your body? This has nothing to do with seeing thousands of kicks and punches thrown at you.

But its cool if you like to collect thousands of kicks. I'm sure that would put you closer to that black sash you've always wanted....after "two decades of personal experience" you sure have earned it!

[DeusTrismegistus]

...Quite simply the only thing that allows a very experienced martial artist to react in an efficient is years of experience learning to deal with a wide variety of moves and intuitively extrapolating an efficient response from his prior experience...

...only by experience seeing thousands of kicks and punches thrown at you.....

..Principles are only really understood from experience reacting with many different techniques...

.

Again, Bull and dojo thinking. Do you even know what a principle is in IMA? how a specific body method is developed? the amount of time you have to drill it to ingrain the method deeply into your body? This has nothing to do with seeing thousands of kicks and punches thrown at you.

But its cool if you like to collect thousands of kicks. I'm sure that would put you closer to that black sash you've always wanted....after "two decades of personal experience" you sure have earned it!

Do you even know what a sparring match or a fight is?

I don't collect anything. I learn to fight. I do go to a school, with walls and a floor to learn MA, however it is not a "Dojo" as you use the term so derogatively. We already made it clear that you don't know shit about my school or my experience or my teacher except what I have said in here. So why don't you stop insulting my school. I have insulted you personally, but I have a basis for that. I won't say anything about your teacher or your school because I don't know shit about them.

You obviously don't know how the brain learns shit since you think you can learn to do something without experiencing it.

This topic is not IMA specific. Actually neither of the original arts referenced are internal, so I don't really know why you are bringing up IMA principles and developing a specific IMA body method, its not relevant.

The topic is (was) about how a person can be thrown off by an unusual style. The answer is that they are unfamiliar to that styles method of movement and techniques. You become familiar with them and learn to react to them by experience, same as any other MA technique. Somehow you seem to be denying that you need to experience something to have an optimal response to it. You seem to want to deny that over time as you experience the technique more that your response become more and more effective and more efficient. That doesn't even make sense.

So tell me how its supposed to work then? I want you to explain how a person can use principles to react to an unfamiliar technique, unfamiliar stances, unfamiliar footwork optimally, the first time. Since that is what you are advocating.

[Josealb]

So tell me how its supposed to work then? I want you to explain how a person can use principles to react to an unfamiliar technique, unfamiliar stances, unfamiliar footwork optimally, the first time. Since that is what you are advocating.

Ill give you nothing. You got a teacher and a dojo...get your moneys worth. Ill stop pointing the obvious because it doesnt make sense to bash people who dont get it...and because ive been asked to take it easy on you.

Cheers.

[nianfong]

Jose, quit the goading. Deus isn't understanding what you're saying. you need to try a different tact than just saying it's bull, and calling his school a dojo.

Deus, you're using too many words. think through very carefully what you want to say, and revise it until you use the least number of words to get your point across. You're getting lost in your own words and misunderstanding jose's words too.

I think what you're trying to say is that you have to see specific categories of techniques or technique PRINCIPLES many times to develop EFFICIENT counters to them. But you don't need to see one specific type of kick to learn how to deal with that class of kick. for instance, if I see an outside crescent kick, dealing with it is very similar to deailng with a hook kick. Or sometimes you counter ANY kick by just stuffing it by moving in.

I believe Jose is saying people can find a counter to ANYTHING you do after any number of times seeing you do it (1st or 100th). It may not be the most efficient counter, but may just work. And if you develop the body method many of those "first response" reactions will be very close to the most efficient reaction, because you've drilled a tight body method (like xingyi) that just drives straight in and counters immediately.

am I right?

-Fong

[Josealb]

Bingo. May dagon bless your understanding heart, Fong.

[fuga]

All hail, Fong, the great peace maker.

[nianfong]

so... cthulhu will consume my soul first? sweeeet.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Jose, quit the goading. Deus isn't understanding what you're saying. you need to try a different tact than just saying it's bull, and calling his school a dojo.

Deus, you're using too many words. think through very carefully what you want to say, and revise it until you use the least number of words to get your point across. You're getting lost in your own words and misunderstanding jose's words too.

I think what you're trying to say is that you have to see specific categories of techniques or technique PRINCIPLES many times to develop EFFICIENT counters to them. But you don't need to see one specific type of kick to learn how to deal with that class of kick. for instance, if I see an outside crescent kick, dealing with it is very similar to deailng with a hook kick. Or sometimes you counter ANY kick by just stuffing it by moving in.

I believe Jose is saying people can find a counter to ANYTHING you do after any number of times seeing you do it (1st or 100th). It may not be the most efficient counter, but may just work. And if you develop the body method many of those "first response" reactions will be very close to the most efficient reaction, because you've drilled a tight body method (like xingyi) that just drives straight in and counters immediately.

am I right?

-Fong

Yep Fong you got my point too. I don't think what you have said about my view and Josealb's view are mutually exclusive either.

[nianfong]

exactly--they are not. you guys were just misunderstanding each other