Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

[kreese]

http://www.apittman.com/east/bagua.shtml

Hung, twenty years earlier had taught Robert Smith and of him said, "He worked very hard". He also said, "He tried to use Judo on me and I was forced to break his arm." At any rate to Allen's knowledge, Robert Smith learned about half the Gao Ba-gua as he has Smiths notes on his studies at that time. Most of Smith's learning was from Hung I-shang, I-mien's younger brother who specialized in his own self created system of Southern Shaolin and Hsing-I called "Tang Shou-tao".

I -shang, a big heavy man was known for his ability to bully people around including his own students of whom it seems, none were his size. For some years he experimented with teaching students to fight in tournaments with gloves on. This practice is antithetical to traditional Chinese boxing as grabbing and clutching are so important to control an opponent in order to hit them..

It is very difficult to bully someone larger than yourself and it is a shame to see a teacher "play the master" by bullying smaller and weaker students. Allen's point is that this seems to be the precedent established by Hung I-shang and his students-many of whom now claim "Master Status". Obviously the same dynamic sometimes unfortunately exists in other martial arts as well. If you have to be abused (by this I mean hurt and wounded badly, hit in the head, repeatedly slapped in the face, arm broken etc) to learn it (---as opposed to "hurt" or kindly jossled or yanked with full knowledge of what is happening)---why bother?

[Doc Stier]

It is very difficult to bully someone larger than yourself and it is a shame to see a teacher "play the master" by bullying smaller and weaker students. Obviously the same dynamic sometimes unfortunately exists in other martial arts as well. If you have to be abused (by this I mean hurt and wounded badly, hit in the head, repeatedly slapped in the face, arm broken etc) to learn it (---as opposed to "hurt" or kindly jossled or yanked with full knowledge of what is happening)---why bother?"

Amen to that, brother!

Doc

[Chris McKinley]

This is a worthwhile topic for discussion, but personally I'd like to see Mr. Hung's name not be impuned unless legitimate evidence or at least credible testimony be provided. Perhaps we could discuss the larger, more generic issue of abusive teaching styles without getting into a personal flame war between the Luo and Pittman lineages yet again.

[Andy_S]

Kreese:

Looking at pics of them together, Smith was bigger than Hong. He was also a hard driver: an ex-marine, ex-boxer and judo player.

Smith mentions having acquired shoulder bursitis from Hong I-shang would punch him there so he learned what it was meant to feel like...this seems not unreasonable. IIRC, he also mentions that the other Hong brother (Hong I-min...?) threw him when they were tussling in the upstairs rooms of a knocking shop(!) and Smith sheared a bone in his arm breakfalling. (ie it was not an intentional break by Hong.) Smith does not accuse either of the Hong brothers of being brutal in his writings, and (again, IIRC) he wrote something to the effect "I'd do it all again in an instant."

OTOH, it seems that this school is rougher than most....but the results of this training speak for themselves: No IMA school in the last 50 years has produced such a crop of fighters. Personally, I would rather be slapped about a bit (at risk of injury) than learn without any bumps or bruises, but that is just me. I have had broken fingers, a broken nose, internal bleeding in my knee joint, etc, etc, from MA, and consider that very light for the years I have been doing this; you can't learn fighting without a bit of blood being spilt.

From what I have read, the Hongs were rough boys, but not bullies.

So...how is training with Luo? didn't he break someone's wrist at a seminar some years back? Have you been marked yet (broken arm, rearranged face, ruptured scrotum)? If so, details, please.

[Andy_S]

Doc:

Being taught, as they are, by a (current) Texan and (former) marine, presumably few of your students have a full set of teeth...?

[chud]

Doc:

Being taught, as they are, by a (current) Texan and (former) marine, presumably few of your students have a full set of teeth...?

Doc Stier's students know his skill from seeing his speed, seeing how he can fa jing and issue power, and how he can demo applications with complete control.

If you've got the goods and are secure in that fact, you don't have to smack beginners around. Showing that you have excellent control proves something too.

I agree with the article. Bullying of students is not professional.

[cerebus]

I've read many articles, interviews, etc. with former students of Hung I Hsiang, but never have I heard (until this thread) of someone accusing him of being a "bully". By all accounts he was a solid, hardcore Hsing-I instructor who knew his art thoroughly and trained top fighters at his school. Of course, if someone isn't interested in becoming a fighter, they have made a grave mistake in joining a fighting school....

[Chris McKinley]

Without corroborating or challenging the claim regarding the Hung brothers above, I will put forth that potentially debilitating injuries are not necessary to learning real skill. I say this as someone who has been in situations where a mere broken arm would be getting off light. Tough training is necessary. Without it, an instructor is providing false confidence to his students, especially if those students are potentially more likely to be in life-threatening situations, such as with LEO's and certain military personnel.

However, even for training that goes far beyond anything the Hung brothers ever trained anyone for, injury greater than simple contusions, abrasions, and minor lacerations is unacceptable to the parameters of the training. Trainees cannot afford to be debilitated by injuries beyond that minor level. Instructors unable to function within those parameters are immediately relieved of their position and replaced by someone more competent.

[chud]

Well said Chris.

[cerebus]

Without corroborating or challenging the claim regarding the Hung brothers above, I will put forth that potentially debilitating injuries are not necessary to learning real skill. I say this as someone who has been in situations where a mere broken arm would be getting off light. Tough training is necessary. Without it, an instructor is providing false confidence to his students, especially if those students are potentially more likely to be in life-threatening situations, such as with LEO's and certain military personnel.

However, even for training that goes far beyond anything the Hung brothers ever trained anyone for, injury greater than simple contusions, abrasions, and minor lacerations is unacceptable to the parameters of the training. Trainees cannot afford to be debilitated by injuries beyond that minor level. Instructors unable to function within those parameters are immediately relieved of their position and replaced by someone more competent.

I agree. However I have never heard of any instances of Hung I Hsiang delivering potentially debilitating injuries to any of his students (and certainly not on purpose). As mentioned above, the broken arm incident with Bob Smith was with Hung I Mien, and was an accident, not something done deliberately. Who was injured so badly by Hung I Hsiang, and what exactly was the injury?

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Trainees cannot afford to be debilitated by injuries beyond that minor level. Instructors unable to function within those
parameters are immediately relieved of their position and replaced by someone more competent.
SNIP

Yes Chris, but as everyone on EF knows, you are a wimp. Please, leave this discussion to the hard men...

Seriously, even in basic infantry training, injury management is a par for the course. As such, if a recruit gets injured, it is usually not the instructor who is at fault: The training itself demands a certain level of risk. Perhaps things are different in the LEO area, but even so...

[Ian]

Still, fewer injuries in MAs than in rugby.

That was profound, I know.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I know when I was young I heard lots of stories about people getting broken bones in classes. As I have gotten older fewer schools near me have kept up sparring regularly though. One in particular had sparring classes once a week but no one would show up because they didn't want to get hurt, so the teacher made sparring on a random day so people couldn't skip anymore. I don't even know if they still spar at all now.

At my school we have had very few injuries. I know of three broken bones in 17 years of attending class, all of the people involved will admit that it was their own fault, usually doing something they weren't taught yet.

As my teacher says the time you have to take off from training isn't worth it.

[kreese]

The words aren't mine. I merely quoted from the link I provided. Of course you don't have to bully someone to teach them. But to characterize someone as a bully is a very loaded statement and as far as I can tell there is no merit to this. Xingyiquan is not "nice", nor should any MA be. It's strategy is to basically "gangsta bum rush" you, and of course you are going to feel bullied, but there is a difference between this and some teacher showing malice or lack of control. But that is what you show to someone you fight. When you practice, you don't hurt your training partners. They are your gong fu brothers, and they put themselves out there for you to practice your skills on. Respect is the #1 priority when practicing with other people. There is nothing sadder for me than working with someone who is so insecure that they have to try to hurt me or impede my practice by trying to be more difficult than necessary for a given drill.

Luo Laoshi shows you what techniques should feel like, but he has perfect control. I got marked up a little bit at the first seminar I ever attended in Madison, WI, but I asked for it (I drove 4 hours to feel real skill) and it wasn't anything more than a few bruises and the psychological shock of being thrown so cleanly and decisively. I suffered ZERO injuries. The only near-injury I got was when working on throws with a beginner. I wouldn't have moved my life to Taiwan if I felt that it wasn't worth it or that Luo Laoshi was anything but a mature adult of the highest skill. I'm still here, and I wasn't wrong about Luo Laoshi.

My intention is not to start a lineage war, but I will call bullshit when I see it. BTW, I also met some of Pittman's students (mentioned at Pittman's site) and they were total gentlemen, so I have no beef with Pittman's crew. They are extended family as far as I am concerned and they get my respect. Period. I just didn't like the implications of this bit of text because it basically tries to diss a master and anyone that ever trained with him. Not cool.

[Chris McKinley]

Andy,

Compared to my old self, I am quite the foppish pile of vagination these days. However, you referenced basic training as an example of a context in which they might be a little more lax regarding injury prevention. Yes, injuries do happen, especially if you're training hundreds of guys at a time. However, I'm talking about more specialized military personnel who are frankly a) more expensive to train than basic infantry and b) not as easy to replace on short notice. LEO's are also treated this way since most police departments don't have a particularly deep bench due to budget and recruitment and must rely on every hand to be duty-ready as much as possible. For these contexts, negligent training which results in injury is unacceptable. It just comes at too high a price tag in terms of dollars and time invested, time for rehabilitation and re-training, and in terms of replacement of the injured person. Does it still happen anyway? Certainly. Dangerous training is never risk-free. But knowing this, avoidable injury due to poor or negigent instruction must be aggressively minimized.

kreese,

I think you went to the heart of the matter by calling it insecurity. My experience teaching for many years is that nobody gets hurt in training more than the instructor, especially if he/she is hands-on. I've had more injuries playing training dummy to my students than from anywhere else in the last 15-20 years. It happens. Every once in a while, I've roughed up a student just a little too much, but never intentionally and never anything that resulted in more than a little soreness for a few days. On balance, my students have kicked my ass a lot more than I've caused them any pain. It just goes with the territory of being an instructor.

When I hear stories where the reverse is true, I just shake my head because there's usually two things I can count on regarding that training environment: 1) the instructor is likely the very insecure owner of a pinkie winkie, and 2) the school likely does not generate many students truly capable of functioning in a combat environment.

To all, I once again request that if we are to continue discussion on this thread, we avoid stirring up the ongoing feud between the Hung I Hsiang and Pittman folks. There's nothing new and constructive to add to that flame war and there might be something of value discussing the more generic topic.