Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Michael Babin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:31 pm

Most of my injuries over the years have been annoying but minor and most have been had when working with either over-zealous newbes that tried too hard to impress me or their fellow students. I've also been injured more than once demonstrating how not to do something but I suppose that goes with the territory of being an instructor.

I do hit some of the more experienced people a bit at times on purpose; for example, I never cease to find it amazing how many recreational martial artists have trained elsewhere and never been shown why its not a great idea to train with their mouths open or to lead with their chins while attacking. Some even need more than a few relatively gentle pops to the puss to realize that there are good reasons to keep the mouth closed, the teeth in gentle contact and the tip of the tongue up on the roof of the mouth. Come to think of it, that might even make a good rule for the Chinese internal arts. ... ;)

As to bullying, its common enough from both teachers and senior students in some schools and I have some bitter memories from some of the training I have had in the past ... but I also learned a lot from it. There's a lot to be said for "eating bitter" though it is often more a way for the instructor to let off steam after a bad day with his boss or girlfriend than an effective teaching tool.

On the other hand, way too many practitioners of the so-called fighting arts seem to think that sweating, much less getting bruised, is a sign of low skill. On the other hand, I have learned much about balance, perseverance and real yielding from being punched by my better students or hurled into padded walls.

I'm not sure why it seems to have crept into modern training but I never ceased to be amazed by the common attitude that you can somehow learn how to defend yourself exclusively through solo form and stance training or by choreographed two-person training methods.
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:09 pm

I'm going to take Michael's idea just a bit further as a very simple experiment in logic. We have:

A) The fact that all martial training, regardless of style, country of origin, or collective beliefs and principles, has as its primary objective the imparting to the individual of functional combat ability.

B) The fact that it is entirely possible to become a very formidable fighter, capable of surviving real life-or-death wartime combat, entirely without engaging in any solo form or stance training whatsoever...not even once. Such has been and is being proved every day and throughout human history. We also have:

C) The fact that it is not possible to learn how to defend oneself exclusively through engaging in solo form and stance training. Those individuals able to defend themselves who exclusively train solo form and stance training are in all cases already able to defend themselves prior to beginning the practice or through means external to the practice. We also have:

D) The fact that those who can defend themselves via specific combative training and/or individual informal experience can be, but are not guaranteed to be, more effective as fighters by engaging in solo form and/or stance training.

The four assertions above should inform our training significantly. We know that we cannot forego actual combative training if we hope to call what we do legitimate preparation for real combat. We also know that since there is the possibility of significant improvement in combat functionality by engaging in solo forms, stance training and similar practices, it is worthwhile to do so as long as it doesn't reduce our ability to engage in combative training. We also must acknowledge that this logic requires the prioritization, when such prioritization is necessary, of combative training over solo form and stance training in the production of combatively functional individuals.

Only two scenarios allow alteration of that prioritization:

1) Situations in which combat functionality is not the objective. While the justification for the pursuit of such training is entirely a personal matter, at the very least, such training needs the intellectual honesty of representing itself as something other than true martial art.

2) Situations in which any prioritization is not necessary. This is, to be sure, the condition in almost all cases. This means that one need not choose between combative training, solo form and stance training, and other types of training altogether. There is time available to train every area sufficiently if one chooses to do so.
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Michael Babin on Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:01 pm

Mr. McKinley's most recent post brings us back to the often-ignored aspect of modern recreational internal arts training -- it can be fun as well as life-changing on many levels. In many ways, training solo forms is the aesthetic/pleasurable side of the art whereas the standing meditative side can be transforming in emotional and spiritual ways while the two-person stuff and the physical conditioning provides the more hard-edged side of the art.

Of course, if your training is too much fun and too self-absorbed, it's less useful for combative reasons; if your training is too grim and functional, it results in stress, injuries and is hard to do when you are alone. I suppose you could call it a matter of balance in your approach and I hear that "balance" is important in any aspect of both life and the internal arts. :)
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Bob Mnemos on Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:10 pm

kreese wrote:My intention is not to start a lineage war, but I will call bullshit when I see it. BTW, I also met some of Pittman's students (mentioned at Pittman's site) and they were total gentlemen, so I have no beef with Pittman's crew. They are extended family as far as I am concerned and they get my respect. Period. I just didn't like the implications of this bit of text because it basically tries to diss a master and anyone that ever trained with him. Not cool.
I don't know Pittman except by reputation through a few friends of mine -- I'm neither for him or against him regardless of the stories I've heard either way. But I've heard many stories about Hung for many years and many sources too and some of them agree with Pittman's story. How about if instead of taking sides and swearing fealty to the Hung name we just put all the stories in the data bin and relax a little bit? All these emotional 'outrages' are bad for the digestion. :P

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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby kreese on Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:00 pm

Bob, you lend a lot of credence to stories, but I am actually training Hung's art with one of his best students. It's not about emotion, it's about honesty. I'm surprised and saddened by this attempt to discredit someone, his martial arts, and his teaching abilities. It's weak. And like I said, I have not taken sides because there are no sides. There are individuals and each one of us is responsible for ourselves and the vibrations we excrete from our mouths.
"Ignore the comments, people will bitch about anything." - Ian
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:03 pm

So I guess this means we all agree with my little thought experiment then? :P
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby AllanF on Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:43 pm

Ian wrote:Still, fewer injuries in MAs than in rugby.

That was profound, I know.

;D Aint that the truth! I had broken bones (fingers, wrists, jaw) ligament damage (knee) and knee dropped so hard i couldn't walk for a week or touch my toes for 3 months afterwards. But dam if i don't still love the game! As far as MA injuries go, split lip :o And had the shoulder joint spread open by a push hands challenge once (learnt that lesson fast!) Other than that it has been ok. My own teacher doesn't throw you around [EDIT: i mean he doesn't beat us up]to show you, as when doing PH/fight apps, it is very apparent that i am no in control of the situation. 8-)
Last edited by AllanF on Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Danny on Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:49 pm

If I can add a bit here, I have known Allen since he was 16, and we lived and trained in Taiwan pretty much at the same time (early to mid '80's), so I think I have an idea where he is coming from regarding "bullying" and Hung I-hsiang.

While I disagree completely with his implication of Hung I-hsiang bullying or fostering bullying in his students, I know for a fact that Allen did have an encounter early on in his training with a notorious "bully" from Hung I-hsiang's school. Before anyone might jump to conclusions, I want to emphasize that it was NOT Luo Te-hsiu!

Keep in mind, Allen was just learning the Kao system from Hung I-mien, when a certain visitor showed up who had been learning the system pretty much from the day he was born...some on this list probably know who I'm referring to...

He wanted Allen to show him what he had learned. Hoping to get some pointers from the visitor, Allen complied, but was rewarded by getting a cheap shot from the visitor! Hung I-mien immediately berated the visitor for his actions and told him to leave...

Hung I-mien then made made some off the cuff comments about his brother's students that have stayed with Allen ever since...


Though certainly not "bullies", that Hung I-hsiang and his students were, however, a no nonsense bunch is almost an understatement as the following story might show...

In 1983 I helped arrange a "reunion" visit to the Hung brothers for Mr. and Mrs. Smith. (Some of this visit is mentioned in "Martial Musings")...
Among the many things Hung I-hsiang said that day, he told us a story about a recent visit to Japan he had made with a few of his students...

He was invited to visit Mas Oyama, and Oyama arranged a pretty good show for Hung of kata, breaking and 2-man self defense techniques...
Hung and his students took it all in and were polite...Oyama then asked Hung, "What do you think?" Hung smiled and said, "It was nice, but can they fight?"

Oyama replied, "Let's see!" Needless to say, Hung's students had no trouble with Oyama's that day, so Oyama made his seniors begin learning from Hung and his students, and Hung said that even Oyama himself began studying with him!


Hope this helps,

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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby kreese on Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:29 am

I'm with you, Chris. I'm not commenting on anyone's gong fu, I just wanted to clear the air on this one topic.

Nice story, Danny. It helps me to understand where Mr. Pittman may be coming from. He's certainly allowed his opinions, but if he is going to publish something like this than I will post counterpoint.

I guess I've been really lucky in that I've always had good teachers. Whether the teacher was teaching Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, Jeet Kune Do, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Systema, Taiji, Xingyi, whatever, I've never encountered the dreaded bully or "Rex Kwon Do" sensei. Such teachers will probably attract other bullies and people that are used to having their personal boundaries crossed. Martial arts practice is very interesting in that you will engage in physical contact with someone who may very well be a total stranger. You usually get what you give.

On the flipside, a lot of teachers are probably scared to perform techniques on students for fear of scaring them with the violent potential of their art. In this sense, combat sports are great in that students seem to understand from the get go that there will be some contact and that you actually want to defeat your opponent.
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:41 am

kreese wrote:On the flipside, a lot of teachers are probably scared to perform techniques on students for fear of scaring them with the violent potential of their art.

I really disagree with this idea for the most part. I think that those teachers who are offering 'tai-chi for health' classes or martial art based aerobics classes in tae-bo, and the like, may have some reservations about presenting martial applications of the exercises with speed and power, if they are even able to do so. This would be incompatible with the expressed agenda priorities of such classes, but certainly not for a class devoted to self-defense and martial development, where it would instead be mandatory for any credibility.

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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby kreese on Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:48 am

And the traditional martial arts of taijiquan and TKD became "taiji for health" and taebo because...?
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby nick on Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:53 am

question for Bob Mnemos,

why are you trying so hard (and doing a good job of it) to sound like Walter Sigman?
or is this you, Walter?
why the name change? ::)
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby shawnsegler on Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:31 am

Walter Sigman?

S
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You behind the wheel
And me the passenger
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Chris McKinley on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:10 am

Doc Stier,

I'm with you, at least if the presentation of what is called 'martial arts' in this country practiced any degree of intellectual honesty. Unfortunately, it doesn't. In terms of advertising, the lines between health and self-defense are constantly blurred. No matter the style being offered, it is de rigeur to walk up to the storefront of the school and see painted on the windows, "Learn self-defense! Self-confidence! Have fun! Get in Shape!". The same place seems to be offering a program which includes not only uber-deadly combat training, but Yoga, Pilates and Inner Child Work. It's ridiculous.

However sorry a state of affairs that represents though, the Chinese internal arts are, if anything, worse. At least those other places compartmentalize the training so that students simply interested in learning how to defend themselves can check the schedule and completely skip the Kung Furobics and the morning Yoga latte classes. With IMA, you don't even have that capability with most schools. It's all one big mish-mash of randomly mixed stuff. If you are extremely lucky, you might find one or two "moves" that might actually work in a real encounter, assuming you already know how to fight. That's how dismal IMA training is for real combat in this country. If one had any dignity at all, one would have to admit that it's a veritable farce. But I digress.... ;P
Last edited by Chris McKinley on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aw, damn! I was enjoying this until...

Postby Chris Fleming on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:27 am

kreese wrote:And the traditional martial arts of taijiquan and TKD became "taiji for health" and taebo because...?



For one thing, people started getting guns and some saw that as eliminating the need to learn how to fight.

More likely though, the recent phenomenon of taiji for health and taebo has its origins in people with no skill but good marketing fu and are doing their utmost to make some cash in the booming fitness industry. Some ride each fad. Jazzersize one season, taebo the next, cardio-bells (to bastardize and capitalize on the kettlebell training methods) after that. Others actually like martial arts but don't put the real work in and just want to make money. For a good example of this, see the Path of Mastery guy in BTDT. When you start having THAT be the norm rather than the exception, the old school guys who teach the real skills become a rarity.

On that note, you wouldn't believe the blank expressions I get when I tell people that wearing a black belt doesn't mean anything and no, I don't train indoors at a "school".

And speaking of taebo, remember when it was all the rage? Then what happened? It started even making the news on just how many injuries it was causing. A doctor I spoke to back then told me there's even a term for those injuries they would use as a sort of medical slang. They called the injuries they would see "taebo knee" and "taebo elbow". I for one would rather get the shit kicked out of me by my teacher and feel the real applications rather than practice a method that was hurting me for the long run.

I do believe though that a teacher should be more than able to express power and speed with out hurting the students though. That is best.
Last edited by Chris Fleming on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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