Yang Shaohou

[willywrong]

Been given this thread a casual glance now and then and have to turn away in disgust because you all sound like a bunch of gossipy old women.
To say something allows shit like this to prosper, to say nothing allow shit like this to prosper.

[Ba-men]

We all know plenty of shite martial art coaches who have big schools, and plenty of martial art publications that would embarrass a three year old.

Why so little students? Well given Ban-hou's rep and that Shao-hao was said to be similar in temperament I'd say the answer is easy - real gung fu is harsh and takes huge commitment, it does not tailor around your life, your life is moulded around it, of you are serious, and given the depth and broad syllabus of tcc I'd say most teachers just don't bother taking the effort o teach such a huge detailed and physically demanding syllabus to those with a half assed interest.

Boxercise always gets more numbers than professional boxing .

Neil doesn't this fly in the face of reality?

I had to call the syphilis story bunk, I gotta call the death by STD's bunk and now I gotta question your interpretation Chen fu's legacy. Gracie BJJ exploded because the public saw that it was legit. Why because Gracies fame that's why. Bruce Lee affiliation with Wing Chun had the same cause and effect. Even back in China before Yang Chen fu's day Huo Yan Jia I.e. Chin Woo Society had a similar outcome. More popular means 99% of the time there is or was something there. Chen fu's TCC explodes throughout the land and you think somehow the exact opposite happen? I.E. Some deviant fat slob of a dude riding the coat tails of his long dead dad and Uncles somehow becomes a movers and shakers of the MA world at that time? I don't by it.. not with what I know. Chen Wei Ming left Sun lu Tang to be a disciple of Chen fu (Chen Wei Ming's is my linage I know this to be a fact) also Wei Ming even trained with Shou hou and still left to go with Chen Fu.) Many people i.e. masters of other arts studied with the Yang's around this time. Why? Because they were all good, not just who you want to think was good. By the way Chenfu practiced the same form/art (different by stylistic interpretation only) as Shou Hou his older brother. You don't think Shou Hou kicked the crap out of him? Or that his uncle Shou Peng wasn't tough on him? You can't look at Yang Zhenduo and little "Yang Jun " and think their "cultural ambassador approach" is the same as what Chen Fu was doing. If R Smith's stories about CMC are half true even he was an adept scrapper before he came to America. I can tell you a great story about CMC challenging Chen fu ( by my Sifu & it didn't end well for CMC) Also one can't look at validation of what chen fu was like at CMC's approach to TCC here in the west, the master of five excellencies beat Yang Zhenduo to the Cultural ambassador game a decade earlier.

Look into some of the early stories about Fu Zhogwen. From all accounts that I know of, he was a Tasmanian devil on the lei tai mat. (he never lost a match!) I met his son Fu Sheng Yuan and once and pushed with him. He was no joke, you tried to steal the day, you saw his mean side. His son probably is one of the best Chen fu practitioners I have ever seen (why? because his dad kicked the crap out of him for years) Chen fu did the same to his disciples behind closed doors. Tung style is very similar to my linage. Prowess means as much to them ( my linage too) as it does anyone. Discipleship is something different than the average soccer mom or hippie explores. I don't teach at fitness USA what I teach my disciples. I want the money.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Chen fu had a lot of smoke surrounding him.

[GrahamB]

Of course yang Cheng fu could fight, he even worked as a bouncer and security guard, but that's not why tai chi became famous. Let's not kid ourselves, tai chi did not become famous as a way of winning fights, it became famous as a way of giving the Chinese a way of finding or rediscovering their identity, their 'Chinese-ness' again at a time when not a lot was going for them. Bjj became famous as an actual martial art for winning real and sporting fights - totally different situation.

[cloudz]

Of course yang Cheng fu could fight, he even worked as a bouncer and security guard, but that's not why tai chi became famous. Let's not kid ourselves, tai chi did not become famous as a way of winning fights, it became famous as a way of giving the Chinese a way of finding or rediscovering their identity, their 'Chinese-ness' again at a time when not a lot was going for them. Bjj became famous as an actual martial art for winning real and sporting fights - totally different situation.

Yang Lu Chan made tai chi chuan famous as a martial art, and his mythology of being 'invincible' bears this out. TCC, had therefore become known as an effective martial art way before YCF and it's promotion to a wider audience. The elite wanted it in YLC's time, including high ranking military officers. The later 'fame' was surely more widespread and mainstream, but it started in more specialised circles and spread out.

[GrahamB]

Of course yang Cheng fu could fight, he even worked as a bouncer and security guard, but that's not why tai chi became famous. Let's not kid ourselves, tai chi did not become famous as a way of winning fights, it became famous as a way of giving the Chinese a way of finding or rediscovering their identity, their 'Chinese-ness' again at a time when not a lot was going for them. Bjj became famous as an actual martial art for winning real and sporting fights - totally different situation.

Yang Lu Chan made tai chi chuan famous as a martial art, and his mythology of being 'invincible' bears this out. TCC, had therefore become known as an effective martial art way before YCF and it's promotion to a wider audience. The elite wanted it in YLC's time, including high ranking military officers. The later 'fame' was surely more widespread and mainstream, but it started in more specialised circles and spread out.

When I said "famous" I meant widespread and popular. Frankly it was pretty obscure until the 1920s-1930s and the push the strengthen the nation through martial arts - Yang Cheng Fu, Wu Jian Quan and Sun Lutang. That was the generation that made Tai Chi popular.

"Yang Lu Chan made tai chi chuan famous as a martial art, and his mythology of being 'invincible' bears this out. "

We're all told Yang Luchan was famous as a fighter, but who did he actually fight? It was a very long time ago! Not may actual records we can rely on.

[wayne hansen]

We all know plenty of shite martial art coaches who have big schools, and plenty of martial art publications that would embarrass a three year old.

Why so little students? Well given Ban-hou's rep and that Shao-hao was said to be similar in temperament I'd say the answer is easy - real gung fu is harsh and takes huge commitment, it does not tailor around your life, your life is moulded around it, of you are serious, and given the depth and broad syllabus of tcc I'd say most teachers just don't bother taking the effort o teach such a huge detailed and physically demanding syllabus to those with a half assed interest.

Boxercise always gets more numbers than professional boxing .

Neil doesn't this fly in the face of reality?

I had to call the syphilis story bunk, I gotta call the death by STD's bunk and now I gotta question your interpretation Chen fu's legacy. Gracie BJJ exploded because the public saw that it was legit. Why because Gracies fame that's why. Bruce Lee affiliation with Wing Chun had the same cause and effect. Even back in China before Yang Chen fu's day Huo Yan Jia I.e. Chin Woo Society had a similar outcome. More popular means 99% of the time there is or was something there. Chen fu's TCC explodes throughout the land and you think somehow the exact opposite happen? I.E. Some deviant fat slob of a dude riding the coat tails of his long dead dad and Uncles somehow becomes a movers and shakers of the MA world at that time? I don't by it.. not with what I know. Chen Wei Ming left Sun lu Tang to be a disciple of Chen fu (Chen Wei Ming's is my linage I know this to be a fact) also Wei Ming even trained with Shou hou and still left to go with Chen Fu.) Many people i.e. masters of other arts studied with the Yang's around this time. Why? Because they were all good, not just who you want to think was good. By the way Chenfu practiced the same form/art (different by stylistic interpretation only) as Shou Hou his older brother. You don't think Shou Hou kicked the crap out of him? Or that his uncle Shou Peng wasn't tough on him? You can't look at Yang Zhenduo and little "Yang Jun " and think their "cultural ambassador approach" is the same as what Chen Fu was doing. If R Smith's stories about CMC are half true even he was an adept scrapper before he came to America. I can tell you a great story about CMC challenging Chen fu ( by my Sifu & it didn't end well for CMC) Also one can't look at validation of what chen fu was like at CMC's approach to TCC here in the west, the master of five excellencies beat Yang Zhenduo to the Cultural ambassador game a decade earlier.

Look into some of the early stories about Fu Zhogwen. From all accounts that I know of, he was a Tasmanian devil on the lei tai mat. (he never lost a match!) I met his son Fu Sheng Yuan and once and pushed with him. He was no joke, you tried to steal the day, you saw his mean side. His son probably is one of the best Chen fu practitioners I have ever seen (why? because his dad kicked the crap out of him for years) Chen fu did the same to his disciples behind closed doors. Tung style is very similar to my linage. Prowess means as much to them ( my linage too) as it does anyone. Discipleship is something different than the average soccer mom or hippie explores. I don't teach at fitness USA what I teach my disciples. I want the money.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Chen fu had a lot of smoke surrounding him.

I concur
There seems to be a bit of Wu yang rivalry here
I have learnt thru both linages and find neither lacking

[cloudz]

Of course yang Cheng fu could fight, he even worked as a bouncer and security guard, but that's not why tai chi became famous. Let's not kid ourselves, tai chi did not become famous as a way of winning fights, it became famous as a way of giving the Chinese a way of finding or rediscovering their identity, their 'Chinese-ness' again at a time when not a lot was going for them. Bjj became famous as an actual martial art for winning real and sporting fights - totally different situation.

Yang Lu Chan made tai chi chuan famous as a martial art, and his mythology of being 'invincible' bears this out. TCC, had therefore become known as an effective martial art way before YCF and it's promotion to a wider audience. The elite wanted it in YLC's time, including high ranking military officers. The later 'fame' was surely more widespread and mainstream, but it started in more specialised circles and spread out.

When I said "famous" I meant widespread and popular. Frankly it was pretty obscure until the 1920s-1930s and the push the strengthen the nation through martial arts - Yang Cheng Fu, Wu Jian Quan and Sun Lutang. That was the generation that made Tai Chi popular.

"Yang Lu Chan made tai chi chuan famous as a martial art, and his mythology of being 'invincible' bears this out. "

We're all told Yang Luchan was famous as a fighter, but who did he actually fight? It was a very long time ago! Not may actual records we can rely on.

Well sure, we are relying on old stories. There are 2 basic choices we can make I think. That there is some solid and real basis to it (relative to the time and culture) which may well have been talked up and embellished a little as tends to happen, or that it's all some silly fairy tale with no basis at all. Everyone can make their own choice as it's completely pointless debating it now.

I make my choice based on practical reasoning rather than specific history of who he fought etc, in so much as I ask: why would some random guy who was a shit fighter be elevated to such a status by the people around him, in a culture that was imbued with martial arts past and present? How could he have fooled so many people in so much as a legend built up around him and made his family famous and provided a living for several generations ? Applying Occam's razor and looking for The most simple and straightforward answer is that he didn't fool anyone and he was just very good and better than most around him at the time.

[cloudz]

We all know plenty of shite martial art coaches who have big schools, and plenty of martial art publications that would embarrass a three year old.

Why so little students? Well given Ban-hou's rep and that Shao-hao was said to be similar in temperament I'd say the answer is easy - real gung fu is harsh and takes huge commitment, it does not tailor around your life, your life is moulded around it, of you are serious, and given the depth and broad syllabus of tcc I'd say most teachers just don't bother taking the effort o teach such a huge detailed and physically demanding syllabus to those with a half assed interest.

Boxercise always gets more numbers than professional boxing .

Neil doesn't this fly in the face of reality?

I had to call the syphilis story bunk, I gotta call the death by STD's bunk and now I gotta question your interpretation Chen fu's legacy. Gracie BJJ exploded because the public saw that it was legit. Why because Gracies fame that's why. Bruce Lee affiliation with Wing Chun had the same cause and effect. Even back in China before Yang Chen fu's day Huo Yan Jia I.e. Chin Woo Society had a similar outcome. More popular means 99% of the time there is or was something there. Chen fu's TCC explodes throughout the land and you think somehow the exact opposite happen? I.E. Some deviant fat slob of a dude riding the coat tails of his long dead dad and Uncles somehow becomes a movers and shakers of the MA world at that time? I don't by it.. not with what I know. Chen Wei Ming left Sun lu Tang to be a disciple of Chen fu (Chen Wei Ming's is my linage I know this to be a fact) also Wei Ming even trained with Shou hou and still left to go with Chen Fu.) Many people i.e. masters of other arts studied with the Yang's around this time. Why? Because they were all good, not just who you want to think was good. By the way Chenfu practiced the same form/art (different by stylistic interpretation only) as Shou Hou his older brother. You don't think Shou Hou kicked the crap out of him? Or that his uncle Shou Peng wasn't tough on him? You can't look at Yang Zhenduo and little "Yang Jun " and think their "cultural ambassador approach" is the same as what Chen Fu was doing. If R Smith's stories about CMC are half true even he was an adept scrapper before he came to America. I can tell you a great story about CMC challenging Chen fu ( by my Sifu & it didn't end well for CMC) Also one can't look at validation of what chen fu was like at CMC's approach to TCC here in the west, the master of five excellencies beat Yang Zhenduo to the Cultural ambassador game a decade earlier.

Look into some of the early stories about Fu Zhogwen. From all accounts that I know of, he was a Tasmanian devil on the lei tai mat. (he never lost a match!) I met his son Fu Sheng Yuan and once and pushed with him. He was no joke, you tried to steal the day, you saw his mean side. His son probably is one of the best Chen fu practitioners I have ever seen (why? because his dad kicked the crap out of him for years) Chen fu did the same to his disciples behind closed doors. Tung style is very similar to my linage. Prowess means as much to them ( my linage too) as it does anyone. Discipleship is something different than the average soccer mom or hippie explores. I don't teach at fitness USA what I teach my disciples. I want the money.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Chen fu had a lot of smoke surrounding him.

I concur
There seems to be a bit of Wu yang rivalry here
I have learnt thru both linages and find neither lacking

Same here. Niall is simply just copying and carrying on his teachers line because he doesn't know any thing else. It's all been said by Dan before. It makes them look petty. It displays a huge lack of class and self respect to pick and cast aspersions on those that are not around anymore; a poor character flaw as far as I am concerned they both now carry forward and pass on to others. If you have to put others down to feel better about yourself, there's a word for that in the real world; bullying. Added to this they pick on a guy who is long dead.. It's rather childish & I have no time or sympathy for it. It does make you wonder; don't they have better things to do with their time? That they clearly don't is a sad reflection on them both and only serves to tarnish them and the lineage they are so proud of representing.

[Doc Stier]

Although it is probably an irrelevant and moot point for most Tai-Chi Chuan practitioners today, logic would suggest that the martial art reputations of the Yang family masters in the first three generations is undoubtedly based upon factual accounts from eyewitness sources, even if some of these accounts have been exaggerated over time. In this regard, it is highly unlikely that most of the notable current practitioners of Tai-Chi Chuan will be similarly remembered 75-100+ years after their deaths.

[GrahamB]

Well sure, we are relying on old stories. There are 2 basic choices we can make I think. That there is some solid and real basis to it (relative to the time and culture) which may well have been talked up and embellished a little as tends to happen, or that it's all some silly fairy tale with no basis at all. Everyone can make their own choice as it's completely pointless debating it now.

I make my choice based on practical reasoning rather than specific history of who he fought etc, in so much as I ask: why would some random guy who was a shit fighter be elevated to such a status by the people around him, in a culture that was imbued with martial arts past and present? How could he have fooled so many people in so much as a legend built up around him and made his family famous and provided a living for several generations ? Applying Occam's razor and looking for The most simple and straightforward answer is that he didn't fool anyone and he was just very good and better than most around him at the time.

I agree with you - we should definitely be objective. However.... you can't discount the times these people lived in and the culture. The utter collapse of their country through a period of civil war into mass genocide into communism into whatever we have today. Today the Chinese government still suppress the people and basically lie to their faces about most things. Yes, you can argue the West do the same thing through the media in a more subtle way, but in China it's blatant. Basically, if you're going to apply Occams razor, I don't think you can ever believe anything you're told about the 'accepted' history of anything Chinese! I'm not saying he wasn't a great fighter, but in that culture, in that very turbulent period of history there could have been all sorts of convenient political reasons. Who knows.

Either way, I'm not sure any of it matter - who can actually fight today is more important.

[Niall Keane]

See you can try and make this about "rivalries" or "bad characters" or "disrespect", but I've stated that it is in poor taste to delve into Shao-hao's death, I've set the record straight on what we know of Cheng-Fu's death, using his son's words, and highlighted what therefore is rumour and what is not.

I have criticized a terrible "orthodox" application, full of exploitable weakness and with decorative gestures (rear hook hand left behind at station) that make no sense AS SHOWN, given that if we watched a western boxer demo a jab like so, we would be wondering What the Fcuk?

Saying it is purposeful lie to hide the "true" application could buy some weight IF.... all the line since then hadn't done the exact same thing and used terms like "chi generation" and "balance" to excuse the ridiculous!

It is only obsequious pandering or cognitive dissonance that can explain excusing such.

I've pointed out other less obvious, to untrained eyes, flaws like lack of evasion in the Cheng-fu demos too!

the counter argument seems to be - but he was popular? or that other CMAs did something similar, but stupidity can't be purged due to the existence of other idiots! The martial arts world has always been full of them, isn't that why Master Ken works?

So make it about my bad attitude if you like... whatever works? Pretend it's rivalry between Yang and Wu, but no, one of my good friends and fellow executive officer of the Irish Chinese Boxing Association, Paul Moran practices "Yang" style derived from Banhou, I have nothing but respect for his ability and he has proved his coaching ability too with EWUF Sanda medallists! I have nothing but respect for the obviously powerful fighters like Lu Chan, Ban Hou, Chien Hou, Shao Hao etc. but I draw the line at bullshit application! I have used the sentence "I don’t know Dan, that feels a bit weak, a bit exposed to me!" to my Sifu about application, and I've gotten a answer, a martially relevant one! But Dan said to me once, "I've taught you everything (the syllabus) now, if you ever have any question ask me, and I'll try to answer, and if I can't, I'll try to find out for you!" Now imagine the humility of that statement Sifu to Disciple? Feel the honesty! Because that is something that clearly hasn't transpired amongst those who blindly follow such a clearly bullshit application such as Cheng-fu's single whip and evidently cannot give an explanation! That makes it clear to me that martial ability, and zhen chuan has been lost! Supplanted by Confucian filial unquestioning "respect" and blind faith!

Personally I think TCC will be dead or nearly so in 100 years, the martial side at least. Outside of the USA and the Middle East religion is dying, people require more than "blind faith", we are surrounded by marketing and know its all lies, so popularity does not equate with proficiency! humanity is growing up!

When the teens of 2114 look to the past of martial arts they will see 21st century K1, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, boxing etc. etc. in action, they will also see and contrast Tai Chi "empty force", patty-cakes push hands demos etc. and wonder how people could believe in this shit with all the evidence around them. Martial Tai Chi will not be understood to be what the handful can demonstrate, an effective martial art, but what the majority did, woowoo, untested, fanciful delusion, it will be reduced to a footnote in the study of primitive cult behaviour and mysticism in some sociology course.

All the names Lu Chan included will be lost forever! That is the Cheng-fu (and the others who have followed suit, chasing the pennies - health tai chi pretending to be martial) legacy! Commercialisation never works out well for the art! Like I said earlier, Lu Chan et all handed the world a Picasso and they came along with their crayons!

Keep in mind, evidently I'm a pugilist and I love this art, my comments aren't designed to denegrate unjustly, but to challenge, a fighter should recognise such! Perhaps in my naivety, I hope, if enough spoke out and dared to point out that the emperor has no clothes on, Tai Chi Chuan may be turned about and even reclaim its place as a respected martial art, instead of being condemned to the dust-bin of historical folly!

[cloudz]

Well sure, we are relying on old stories. There are 2 basic choices we can make I think. That there is some solid and real basis to it (relative to the time and culture) which may well have been talked up and embellished a little as tends to happen, or that it's all some silly fairy tale with no basis at all. Everyone can make their own choice as it's completely pointless debating it now.

I make my choice based on practical reasoning rather than specific history of who he fought etc, in so much as I ask: why would some random guy who was a shit fighter be elevated to such a status by the people around him, in a culture that was imbued with martial arts past and present? How could he have fooled so many people in so much as a legend built up around him and made his family famous and provided a living for several generations ? Applying Occam's razor and looking for The most simple and straightforward answer is that he didn't fool anyone and he was just very good and better than most around him at the time.

I agree with you - we should definitely be objective. However.... you can't discount the times these people lived in and the culture. The utter collapse of their country through a period of civil war into mass genocide into communism into whatever we have today. Today the Chinese government still suppress the people and basically lie to their faces about most things. Yes, you can argue the West do the same thing through the media in a more subtle way, but in China it's blatant. Basically, if you're going to apply Occams razor, I don't think you can ever believe anything you're told about the 'accepted' history of anything Chinese! I'm not saying he wasn't a great fighter, but in that culture, in that very turbulent period of history there could have been all sorts of convenient political reasons. Who knows.

Either way, I'm not sure any of it matter - who can actually fight today is more important.

Fair enough, but Yang Lu Chan disciples were real respected martial artists and military officers. Why would they follow him if he wasn't any good ?
That is verifiable history as far as I am aware and has nothing to do with propaganda.

The counter to this is that they all must have been rubbish and didn't know any better. And that has to include every past master that gets discussed on this board. If we have all been attracted to people with skills to these arts, how could that possibly be?

[cloudz]

Niall, to me it's very simple. The basic things you have said about YCF came out of Dan's mouth years ago. You're just putting it out there again and doing all you can to justify it with all sorts of reasoning that doesn't really matter very much and is equally questionable. You act as if these views are coming from you, but they originally came from your teacher and his experience and you are just parroting him.

It doesn't matter about some yang style teacher you know. Dan's experience in London back then was with a Yang guy most agree was not really up to much - Chu King Hung - and whilst being an official disciple many insiders whisper that he paid a lot and didn't get much and was not "a fighter" if you will.

This may well have caused Dan to question the YCF lineage, and he may have repeated what he had heard about YCF in the process, commented on photos etc. Fair enough, we all have a right to form an opinion and believe what we like.

The truth is you are not forming this opinion for yourself based on your experiences you are just regurgitating your teachers and the gossipy stories he heard. I mean seriously who gives a _ how the poor guy died.. As if it has a relevance to anything at all.

And you're seriously still banging on about a still photo, there are many possible explainations. Just look at the still photo Graham showed you of Dan's teacher. You are more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt though. Those kinds of books were quite new, as was photography; how much should we expect them to show or possibly show with one photo?

I'm going to leave it because no doubt more of the same will follow from you. Be well in your views, but they are not unchallengeable as you wish them to be.

[Niall Keane]

Niall, to me it's very simple. The basic things you have said about YCF came out of Dan's mouth years ago. You're just putting it out there again and doing all you can to justify it with all sorts of reasoning that doesn't really matter. As if they are coming from you, they originally came from your teacher and you are just parroting him.

It doesn't matter about some yang style teacher you know. Dan's experience in London back then was with a Yang guy most agree was not really up to much - Chu King Hung - and whilst being an official disciple many insiders whisper that he paid a lot and didn't get much and was not "a fighter" if you will.

This may well have caused Dan to question the YCF lineage, and he may have repeated what he had heard about YCF in the process, commented on photos etc. Fair enough, we all have a right to form an opinion and believe what we like.

The truth is you are not forming this opinion for yourself based on your experiences you are just regurgitating your teachers and the gossipy stories he heard. I mean seriously who gives a fuck how the poor guy died.. As if it has a relevance to anything at all.

And you're seriously banging on about a still photo, there are many reasons that can be explained. Just look at the still photo Graham showed you of Dan's teacher. You are more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt though. Those kinds of books were quite new, as was photography; how much should we expect them to show or possibly show with one photo?

I'm going to leave it because no doubt more of the same will follow from you. Be well in your views, but they are not unchallengeable as you wish them to be.

sorry but bullshit, ad hominem bullshit!

Dan never spoke or wrote about the Cheng-fu single Whip application! My point about leaving yourself wide open comes from extensive international sanda competition, both myself and as a coach!

Just answer the question, do you think that single whip as demoed by Cheng-fu and his line is ok martially?

[cloudz]

He mentions it in one of his articles or at least he did. You are not the original source of that.