Yang Shaohou

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby yeniseri on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:42 pm

I am not a pure taijiquan person (have no idea what that is) but I try to learn from anyone.

From about .42 - 1.36 are elements of Single Whip continiuum. From first contact to end of single whip posture are elements of penglujiankaoshuaida........... so I do not see it (Single Whip) as a single application but multiple application based on the training and conditioning of the practitioner. Many arts share the same template so I feel this clip has elemenst of patterns of movement contained within Single Whip.
Just saying that it is rare to find any Yang style showing this breadth of instruction and conditioning.



Please see beyond the bladed tool and look at hand/body positioning with angles/vectors!
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:59 pm

What makes Tai Chi Nei Gung practice different from other daoist nei gung..... the movements and postures relate to virtuous martial application, not just to connected movement! Indeed they have martial applications!

We can practice form, and quite literally we are not engaged with the opponent, but the movement we practice aids us in this endeavour. Now form is only one pillar, nei gung another, tuishou another, and so is sanshou, the practice of the orthodox applications individually and progressing to free sparring. not that we then give up single application practice, its a great way to hone and / or polish skill.

BUT .... when we practice application we are not doing form, we need to prioritise "function" and understand the relationships between attack and defence. No hollows, no bumps, nothing exaggerated, nor is there anything lacking! There is no "empty" movement in application. It can be exaggerated or somewhat stylised at first, big / large as we hear, but "every part of the body is strung together, without the least break", not only is our nei gung ability expressed, but our tactics and strategy too, which form part of the body of our art. A hole in defence is as bad as a disjointed expression. Practising applications full of holes is as bad as practising form with no connection, to do so wilfully is folly indeed.

I am not arguing about the "only" way of doing things, nor reducing an art that celebrates transformation to a collection of finish form postures. Quite the opposite, I argue that to do so is insane, to launch in head on with a finished posture, half of which is doing nothing practical at the time, disregarding the transition and its martial relevance is probably the single biggest error of all CMA "masters" who have never fought. It degrades the art to woowoo magic postures, the imposition of static posture on dynamic combat. There is no "holding" empty postures in a fight, though judging by the success of that WWF type "wushu masters" series, it is exactly this that people expect, weird guards that expose multiple directions of weakness, letting any opponent pick and chose , if they feint defence is impossible, striking or throwing and then expanding and holding an orthodox form posture as if that had any relevance to what had just ALREADY occurred - its theatre and only theatre.
Every time I hear "that’s only kick-boxing" , I know 99.99% of the time the speaker means he doesn't see any orthodox form shapes like one would in "wushu masters", unbelievably many take this type of performance art seriously and cannot tell martial virtue from pure pantomime.

Its so the Dunning-Kruger Effect!
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:44 pm

“拳有打法, 练法, 演法”

A form can be done in 3 different ways:

1. combat,
2. training,
3. performance.

To apply "training" in "combat" is wrong. I'll never use this move in sparring, or try to explain it's "application" either.

Image
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:01 am

This is why I don't bother to read too much into photos like this. In the pose John just posted you could say the front hand is a strike and there is a knee showing there too. You could read those as basic applications. And they could be shown like that to give a beginner/ learner some basic idea of part usage of the pose. However combat is not static. The rear hand is out back and that could signify nothing but a training posture. Or we could speculate about multiple opponents or pulling someone into your strikes. It doesn't really matter if you have methods to train different aspects of you martial art. Taking a single form pose/ photo as the entirety of someone's art or the entirety of a style / system seems pointless speculation to me. Which goes back to my original statements of this all being highly speculative and why I would not jump on that particular bandwagon.

I'm not some die hard "Yang guy" out to defend a long dead masters honour - that's not me. That's not to say a modicum of respect is something to be put aside. However none of this doesn't stop me expressing my personal opinions. We are all doing that and we can certainly agree to disagree on some points.

As for training against dummy one step punches, it is arguable whether it has it's place and how valuable that is. But for me that place is not to confuse usage of something that in my opinion should not be applied directly to a punch. No amount of justification can demonstrate the upside of those "advantages" which are not unique to that particular training modality.

It's a common thing in CMA, which I think is better trained by passing by unrealistic applications directly against one step punching. As for my responses to punches I get them against sparring drills were people punch at me in real time with real combinations with real intent to land consecutively whilst being retracted quickly in a realistic manner. This has taught me what is realistic and what is not. It has taught me tactics and methods for applying grappling against striking. No amount of one step punches is going to teach that, and in this case only serves to breed unrealistic application and keep CMA in antiquity like an old relic.

Single whip has two basic elements: the pull/control and the strike. If you can't do the first element against real time punching or grappling, you can't do it full stop.
I'm not saying anyone here cannot do it, just that the clip I watched is a sub standard way to go about it in my opinion. If you don't like or agree with that opinion, that's just the way it is.

The clip Graham posted shows the standard tai chi chuan contextual method (push hands) of training the application/ technique on it's own which begins with a grappling/ control move and finished with a strike/ knockdown. This is much smarter, and more useful than doing it against a one step punch, whilst also training much more TCC specific elements. training the technique from a static tie up / clinch position is also ok.

You then take this into realistic sparring drills where one guy is trying to punch you like a boxer where you hone your methods and tactics of getting to those positions where you look to apply the techniques you practice and also the lessons of free pushing fixed and moving.. One step punches are redundant and a relic if you train like this. if people did those punches in real time and real speed power, and intent it would quickly show exactly how redundant and silly they are as a training method for this kind of technique and to be taken with a massive pinch of salt.

Of course you can get some practice of a technique in with them, but you can do that anyway without the silly one step punches hanging out there that are for show and nothing else.

When I was training with Neill Rossiak we did a drill called 5 element arm which was basically different punches thrown by one partner and using parries, deflections and appropriate defences against them. This is the kind of thing you can train against choreographed punches because that's about as best you are going to manage against the real thing and that at least has it's place/ utility. This drill can quickly progress to a live format where the punches no longer have a sequence. You could start off with the basic of basics and throw single shots, but that shouldn't last long and is for beginner / first time learner.

We also quickly progressed to a drill where he would be "the boxer" and I would use the defensive components, grappling moves or at least try to.. There are of course other drills for counter striking and finally san shou sparring, but in my view isolated sparring drills are a very important component that builds you up to the end game in the way you want to apply your style and they can have many interesting and useful variations to them.. at least to me.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:46 pm

Every punch is a single punch
That sort of application is just entry
It can b a useful form of training as part of an overall regime
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby Niall Keane on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:21 pm

I couldn't be arsed writing about the relevance of orthodox technique or "lies to children" again, skip straight to sparring like the tap out tshirt lads if you like, its the road to perpetual journeyman status, ie lacking that all important "finesse". I've yet to come across a world class coach in a combat sport who would disagree. And I know plenty very well.

Hey, its a cliche because its true - you gotta crawl before you can run!

I explain it all here anyway...


Traditional technique - Beginning Style.MOV: http://youtu.be/kA7Wrxmf_jc
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby Niall Keane on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Every punch is a single punch
That sort of application is just entry
It can b a useful form of training as part of an overall regime


True, everything should have its place and function in preparing a fighter.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:26 pm

Well I didnt say not to practice technique, only that the one step punch set up is limited and in a lot of guises is unrealistic and or not appropriate and unnecessary. But hey why am I surprised it's a poorly understood critique in some quarters. By no means does what I said apply to co operative technique training as a whole, but aimed at how its often done.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:19 pm

Where Can I see world class combat sport people training much with the one step punch?
I don't think it happens that much. And if it does its a small percentage of the whole and done realistically. In Tma it's the norm or standard.I think you can train/drill an evasion possibly combined with a defensive action and either a single counter strike or an entry.

But it's limited to that in terms of what's realistic and you might see the counter strike in boxing training for example but more commonly chained in a longer drill which might also include more offensive work from you or defensive - there are lot's of variations possible. And the entry off a single punch in mma. The vast majority of tma practice way more against a one step than they would get away with. And often use moves that are inappropriate; those that involve effectively "catching" it which is the main thing I was addressing in my earlier post. In combat sports the grappling/ wrestling techniques are as a standard drilled from set positions or against grappling offense and not against punching.

It wasn't about "skipping straight to sparring" that part was about training realistically against punching given how limited the one step punch is for that. At some point, and I would hope quickly people will be working with combinations and only then non choreographed drills. This is not about doing away with technique training far from it.

Wayne, every punch maybe a single punch, but good fighters use them in a bunch.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:29 pm

johnwang wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I understand now
You were talking about something you have no personal expierence of.

Really, wayne? Seriously? No need for you to be an ass! I have longer experience in all of the practices discussed here than you do, FYI! ::)

Doc Stier,

This is an excellent example that no matter how careful that you may try to put words into your post, you will still end with argument. If you have trained TCMA for many years, you just can't pretend that you are still a beginner.

If you pretend that you

- are a beginner, people will ignore your posts.
- know something, people will say that they don't like to be lectured.

The online discussion is a lose-lose situation. The more that you have said, the more argument that you will get into.


Image

The Taiji system came from the long fist system. The Taiji "single whip" also came from the long fist "二郎担山一条鞭 (Er Lang Dian Shan Er Tiao Bien)".

Image

http://www.kmzx.org/huaquan/ShowArticle ... cleID=4372

To keep your arm behind of your body is to "train" how to align your leading arm, leading shoulder, back shoulder, and back arm in a perfect straight line, the most important long fist principle. It's a training method. It's not a combat method.

Image


only using this post because JW posted some other pics with ideas of usage
thought it might add to what he, and others have said.



it shows the hook hand similar to what many seem to have a problem with.
disclaimer: posted only in light of the post, lots of variations with this movement.
the sw I teach/use is more similar to the wu style.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:10 pm

Someone liked to fight with one arm behind.

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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:54 am

wayne hansen wrote:Every punch is a single punch
That sort of application is just entry
It can b a useful form of training as part of an overall regime


The sparring drill I described is not just about entry, although that can and should be a part. It's also about punching defence and evasion. I didn't mean to suggest you jump straight to it and there is no training progression. of course it is a part of an overall regime. That's why I mentioned the 5 element arm drill. However it's not about the one step punch. It's about learning first against a sequence of punching. This is pretty much how it's taught in boxing. You will quickly come to practice against combinations and different combos and responses get chained together. People need to learn against set things first, no argument there. And I have no problem with that training. My issue is how the one step punch drills are over used and misused. For working against punches it should be much more about working against a set sequence like a straight lead, cross, hook than a single shot. And the techniques drilled against them should be realistic responses.

I have a number of drills that train technique co operatively to prepare for more free form sparring drills. There is a progression, and it all fits into an overall regime. However my post was more about the utility of the one step punch and how useful these are to utilise. They may have a place, but we have to properly understand it and try not to waste too much valuable training time.. In boxing for example it would be left behind to the combinations and sequences very quickly. Other than entries there is no need to train grappling wrestling techniques directly against them.

Hope my view on one step punch drills is clearer now.. I didn't have time to write everything involved in training progression, but I thought it was worth mentioning where you should be looking to take training against punches. If you're going to do that the single one step punch needs to be seen for what it is.. :P
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby Steve Rowe on Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:05 am

Form has 3 treasures, medical (health), skill learning and boxing (application). To enhance skill learning the combination of techniques is to enhance skill level not just direct application, often entry and exit are different, the same technique is often performed differently in the same and different forms and should be changed slightly with each performance. Often 2 or more techniques are being done at the same time and the body can be split L and R and upper lower to find separate techniques that also often go well together. The complexity is important to train kinaesthesia and co-ordination, otherwise we'd reach a low level skill and never improve.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:38 am

Steve Rowe wrote:Form has 3 treasures, medical (health), skill learning and boxing (application). To enhance skill learning the combination of techniques is to enhance skill level not just direct application, often entry and exit are different, the same technique is often performed differently in the same and different forms and should be changed slightly with each performance. Often 2 or more techniques are being done at the same time and the body can be split L and R and upper lower to find separate techniques that also often go well together. The complexity is important to train kinaesthesia and co-ordination, otherwise we'd reach a low level skill and never improve.


It's also about context Steve. In my view you don't need to string too much technique together against a single attack. A parry and a kick for example is more than enough against a single punch for striking, adding more is an assumption that the opponent makes no adjustment or response at all. That's "complexity" for it's own sake and makes the responses unrealistic and generally unusable in that form. It's a train how you would fight approach I suppose. You can make a sequence where you do combine techniques, but that sequence should include a further response from the partner further from the initial "one step" attack - be it a punch or whatever. If there is no response you are not really enhancing anything further by doing further techniques against no further response that you couldn't get by simply drilling them. Chaining should be a 2 way street in my view.

In a live drill the one punch attack approach will quickly breakdown when the opponent starts responding back, unless you make it 'life like'; counters to counters, rather than one attack and a heap of counters from one side which is what is often seen. So for a grappling example against a single punch getting your entry and single takedown is the starting point. Then you could add in to train the counter to that entry for the guy who threw the punch and he could then be doing the takedown. It can be taken further I suppose, but then you have to weigh up exactly how necessary you think that is in relation to your overall training program.
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Re: Yang Shaohou

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:06 am

The one punch etc. Simple attack is adopted for beginners learning from scratch, after that resistance is built upon, including combos etc.

So I have no argument with that position.

Even in the five element fist drill, sequence is broken to be random, combos added, angles movement and kicks and sweeps once past beginner introduction.
It is quite a useful drill. Forces a lot of people out oftheir comfort zone and normal responses.
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