Yang Shaohou

[willywrong]

George, I've come to the conclusion that debating with Niall is a waste of time - he's always right, even if that means he goes full circle in his viewpoint to the point where he would be arguing against himself at the start of a thread.

Plus, I can't compete with that many exclamation marks. It's impossible!!!!!!!!!!

You know the Irish have never really liked the English since Cromwell. (to be sure,to be sure)
in spirit
Eric Fitzgerald

[wayne hansen]

The Wu retreat to ride tiger has the lower band hooked
The application is the same as yang just more obvious

[Steve James]

The Wu retreat to ride tiger has the lower band hooked
The application is the same as yang just more obvious

I guess you mean Ma's Wu from Shanghai? or both that and the HK family Wu? Anyway, is there a photo on the net?

[taiwandeutscher]

In old Yang (Jianhou), after the front block, we turn right, with left hand also hooking a leg, backwards, whilst right hand blocking or grasping upwards to the right!

[wayne hansen]

Both Wu is always filmed in this position as it looks so good


https://www.facebook.com/wayne.hansen.7 ... 9653667192:
Here is a picture of wang in retreat to ride tiger

[Steve James]

The link's busted.

[wayne hansen]

Try again I had it on friends

[Niall Keane]

Seeing as I am being accused of being disrespectful to the dead, for those who feel that let me steer you in the right direction ..

At no point have I criticised Cheng-fu on a personal level, how could I , I never knew the man. My opening post in this thread was to express distaste over the morbid fascination with Shao-hao's suscide.

Speculation arose regarding Cheng-fu's demise and I simply quoted his SON and basically stated one can infer what they like based on such.

I have criticised Cheng fu' "art" for his publication of very dubious applications, in particular his single whip. I have have even accepted that he may be concealing what he knew, but I have pointed out that if this is the case , why do his discendants continue to publish such folly in the late 20th / early 21st century?

In any art form an aspiring artist is encouraged to study past masters and find who and what they like and conversely what they dislike and disbelieve! This helps every art to "evolve" !!!

But if we are to blindly follow an artists method simply because he is now dead, well let's call it what that is - a museum!

Dress it up with Confusian values or revering the dead all you like, if art falls outside of the realm of active criticism once the artist dies, then it is no longer art at all, art should provoke consideration and critique, not a script of fake reverence.

Of course in all art forms the vast majority of the "connesseurs" indeed adopt fake reverence, the herd consensious, mainly because they have no real ideas themselves at all. And certainly some artists have exploited this and others have even parodied it at the expense of their audience!

[Andy_S]

Herman:

RE:
Brits, Who can understand them?

Sorry mate, permit me to translate for you.

English
Jolly good, will acquire wellies, cords, Barbour and a pewter hip flask.
Germlish
Ach, gut! I vill acquire jackboots, leather shorts, a Prussian jacket and a flask for ze schnapps, ja.
English
What could be more fun than bagging a brace or two of Bath's great unwashed?
Germlish
Vot could be more enjoyable zan than shooting dead 2-4 of Baden Baden's verdammt poor people?

[Steve James]

Try again I had it on friends

I get the message.

"Sorry, this page isn't available
The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed."

Anyway, I can imagine lots of ways the "hooked hand" could be used to hook something. (It's actually always used in our "da shou" practice (to hook a low strike). That's partly because the falling hand (with the palm down) can naturally form a hook-like shape (to perform a hooking task). But, that's different from what I think is being discussed in regard to the SW's "hooked hand" --which is so often called a "crane's beak." Is it necessary for the hand to take that particular shape in order to hook something at that (eye or shoulder) height? The key word is necessary; not whether it's possible.

Of course, it's possible to "hook" something without putting the hand in that shape, or even having the hand in the opposite shape (a la the Balinese dancer's hand). Hooking is a function, not a form.

Fwiw, I don't know this person, but here's one idea.

[Ba-men]

Yea... that's the idea. At least how I was taught. (used in conjunction with lie (splitting action) pulling with the hook and striking with the palm. It usually use with fast sharp Jin as in a standard palm strike. Hence the term Dian Bian ala "Single whip" simple straight and to the point.


The Pic that Niall is harping on(w/Yang Zhenduo ) was taken at the very last part of the action (the completion of the strike)

It's a simple technique can be done regardless of what stance your opponent is in. In a grappling situation one can even use it w'soft Jin (while stepping deep into (or through) the opponent''s root. If he's skilled might first use a foot sweep ( ala the step in the form) or even a fake/feint a foot sweep..... to set it up.

[Ba-men]

Seeing as I am being accused of being disrespectful to the dead, for those who feel that let me steer you in the right direction ..

At no point have I criticised Cheng-fu on a personal level, how could I , I never knew the man. My opening post in this thread was to express distaste over the morbid fascination with Shao-hao's suscide.

Speculation arose regarding Cheng-fu's demise and I simply quoted his SON and basically stated one can infer what they like based on such.

I have criticised Cheng fu' "art" for his publication of very dubious applications, in particular his single whip. I have have even accepted that he may be concealing what he knew, but I have pointed out that if this is the case , why do his discendants continue to publish such folly in the late 20th / early 21st century?

In any art form an aspiring artist is encouraged to study past masters and find who and what they like and conversely what they dislike and disbelieve! This helps every art to "evolve" !!!

But if we are to blindly follow an artists method simply because he is now dead, well let's call it what that is - a museum!

Dress it up with Confusian values or revering the dead all you like, if art falls outside of the realm of active criticism once the artist dies, then it is no longer art at all, art should provoke consideration and critique, not a script of fake reverence.

Of course in all art forms the vast majority of the "connesseurs" indeed adopt fake reverence, the herd consensious, mainly because they have no real ideas themselves at all. And certainly some artists have exploited this and others have even parodied it at the expense of their audience!

SAY WhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaT ??????????

You have alluded, You have speculated. However after reading a few of your post I get why you are doing it (I think) Somewhere you got it in your head that Chenfu was a deviant, that his Quan fa was shit. (from your Sifu???) and.... after witnessing the fallout from years cultural ambassadorship from the Chen fu branch, you are convinced that what you were told is the truth. I would be also... but the evidence and the first and secondary sources say otherwise.

Yet.... I get it. I have taught very few people the real martial side of the Chen Wei Ming linage and the real reason is because Chen fu's art isn't seen as a martial art. It doesn't attract fighters, it attracts pretenders, philosophers, old and "Tree Mugger's". In fact for the last ten yrs or so the only students I've taught are Hot Milfs and the local Gym (and just the form). Does it piss me off? Meh? used too. Do I sneer at the people waving their arms in the air pretending? No.

Niall I do smell what your stepping in! I do treat cultural ambassadorial instructors with contempt and if I'm in the room I don't let them teach crap (if they cross into the martial side) At times its been a problem and has even resulted in me knocking a few on their ass. (Which is seen as disrespectful, so I don't do it anymore and partially because I'm to old for that shit now) It disgusts me to a point that now I very rarely associate with fellow IMA practitioners. Way to many charlatans out there also....

So I get it! Love that your calling BS when you think you see it. It's what is needed in the IMA community, has been for quite some time. Keep it up and their is nothing wrong with being critical of others (as long as you are ok with some constructive criticism yourself) I would think as you do/did if I wasn't taught Chen Fu's Taijiquan back in the late 1970's early 80's when it was seen just as another quanfa (where My sifu entered me in Sanshou tournaments with all styles) and not some Tree Mugger art as its seen now.

[GrahamB]

Is this the first use of "Tree Mugger"? It's an excellent evolution of "Chi hugger".

[Steve James]

Is this the first use of "Tree Mugger"? It's an excellent evolution of "Chi hugger".

Sounds new to me. Then again, no one ever thinks about how the tree might feel about being groped

[willywrong]

[
Of course, it's possible to "hook" something without putting the hand in that shape, or even having the hand in the opposite shape (a la the Balinese dancer's hand). Hooking is a function, not a form.

You're absolutely right that hooking is a function and not a form but the manner of the function (hooking) determines the shape of the form i.e. form follows function.
Just in case my words are unclear imagine a left fist being delivered to your liver area one drops one's wrist over the forearm similar to your photo with the loose hook hand except one keeps the form in a more expanded open hand shape roll the wrist to remove the approaching fist, delivering your own palm to their spleen area or of thereabouts. Speed gained by leaving the hand open and not going from hook to palm is a timing advantage.
The hooking function is performed by the wrist or the inner palm as opposed to a hooking function with a hooked hand no rolling of the wrist. Same hooking function different body part used resulting in a different hand form shape.
But to reiterate you're absolutely right hooking is a function and not a form.