Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:47 am

I have recently made a purchase of three custom-made red oak staffs from Tozando, for Pigua Feng Mo Gun practice:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/Tozando-Cust ... Jo-Bo-p/01[y]-999.htm

I am very pleased with these. Price was decent I think, especially considering the free shipping.

The specifications were honed to the millimeter - I checked!! 8-) Wood is heavy and well-polished. Can certainly take abuse, albeit not as much as Bai La wood, and is also less flexible (but heavier).

I made a special request of the company to make the staffs taper on one side. Flawless execution, even though this option wasn't available for any product on their website. I was very impressed with their professionalism. I specified the exact width on each end, and it came out perfectly. Shipping was quick and the packing was very well done.

Note that strong short fa jin is not possible with red oak, since it's not flexible enough. So works well for short/medium staffs, but would not have worked for spear training.
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:46 am

Soak them in lemon or linseed oil for a week, then continue feeding them with oil (rub them with an oil soaked cloth) from then on. They will become more flexible and have some give - like heavy gauge spring steel.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:03 pm

Thanks!!

For how long should I keep rubbing oil in, and at what frequency?
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:13 pm

About once a week (perhaps more since you live in a very arid environment) for as long as you own it.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:28 pm

kenneth fish wrote:Soak them in lemon or linseed oil for a week, then continue feeding them with oil (rub them with an oil soaked cloth) from then on. They will become more flexible and have some give - like heavy gauge spring steel.

I still remember when I was in Jianguo high school, the 1st semester we had a group of staff that were treated by oil (didn't know what kind of oil). It worked very well. A year later we got a group of staff that didn't have any oil treatment. It all broke within 3 months.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:48 pm

Nice shop, for sure, but maximum length of 175cm wouldn't do for me!

How are your waxwoods doing?
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:04 pm

I used to demonstrate dou jing with the hardwood staffs that had been treated - you could see the far end vibrate if you did it right. On the occasion that I picked an untreated staff they would snap after one or two sharp shakes. It impressed the students, but was a waste of good hardwood.

John: I used to live not far from Jianguo. When I went wandering around the neighborhood in 2012 I kind of got lost. Fortunately, a postman was bicycling down the street and I asked him where Jianguo was - he laughed and said "you're standing right in front of it! Been away a long time?" Damn but the neighborhood had changed.

Is it true that Jianguo guys only dated girls from Bei Yi ?
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:26 pm

kenneth fish wrote:I used to demonstrate dou jing with the hardwood staffs that had been treated - you could see the far end vibrate if you did it right. On the occasion that I picked an untreated staff they would snap after one or two sharp shakes. It impressed the students, but was a waste of good hardwood.

John: I used to live not far from Jianguo. When I went wandering around the neighborhood in 2012 I kind of got lost. Fortunately, a postman was bicycling down the street and I asked him where Jianguo was - he laughed and said "you're standing right in front of it! Been away a long time?" Damn but the neighborhood had changed.

Is it true that Jianguo guys only dated girls from Bei Yi ?

In the staff form that I trained, there are 2 places that I had to swing the staff straight down onto the ground and let it to bounce back. When I did that, the none oil treated staff could be broken at that moment.



I used to let the staff to lay on the ground. Use the ball of the foot to roll it toward me. I then used my toes to kick it to my opponent. My opponent then caught with his hand. My opponent then did the same and kick that staff back to me.

Believe it or not, in those 3 years in Jianguo high school, I did not dated any girl at all. There were just too much school work and longfist training. My regular longfist training was from 5:30pm to 7:30pm on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. But I also helped my teacher as his assistant for the evening school on Tuesday and Thursday. There were no time to even thinking about girls.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby TeaSerpent on Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:32 am

Traditionally they used Tung oil (another drying oil similar to linseed, only it will not yellow with age like linseed does), I have heard of the old teak poles being submerged for a year before use. I have talked to people who have done this today and they say it works great.
The best way is to get some PVC pipe that you can fit your staff down with only a little extra space and cut it to slightly longer than your staff. Cap one end and seal it, put the staff in and fill the pipe with Tung oil, then cap the top with a tight fitting cap. But don't seal it you will need to open it and add in more oil occasionally. Also maybe put in a short stick on top to keep the staff completely submerged otherwise it will float up to the top.
You can also get what is called "Citrus Solvent", mixing some of this in with the oil will increase it's penetration into the wood. The good thing about this is that it leaves no toxic residues at all, all other solvents (turpentine, mineral spirits, etc.) are toxic in some manner. Be careful there are various solvents that use Citrus oil that are not the same thing.
The drawback is that you won't get to use the staff for a year, the benefit is that it will probably last longer than you.
But you do still need to oil it regularly afterwards.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby Lu da on Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:13 am

Tung oil takes a very very long time to cure. Under ideal circumstances it can take at least a month to cure once the excess residue is removed.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby Bodywork on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:29 am

Long time wooden weapons user in schools with hundreds of others users experience as well. We always talk about weapons, woods, treatment etc. Here is our experience and opinion:

With the shiro shira kashi oak you are getting from Tozando the best bet is to soak it in boiled linseed oil (linseed oil is thick and used to swab on the bottom of posts -like creasote-as a water proofing). No worries as 90% of the time all you are going to find is the boiled variety and most store clerks haven't a clue anyway, but you need to know the difference.

Pure Tung oil -is not- a smart choice. It is primarily a finish or a sealer. It sets up a matrix on the surface of the wood, where boiled linseed oil penetrates and will NOT make a slippery surface seal.

A mixture of 80-85% boiled linseed oil and the remainder as tung oil is best as it will penetrate deeper than tung oil. Even though tung oil says it "penetrates" on the bottle, what it really means is that it penetrates the surface and then sets up a matrix ON the surface.

With the small cross-sections of weapons that we are discussing; swords, spears, staffs etc., anything after a two day soak is a waste of time, as the oil will already have penetrated to the center. Once you take it out of the oil. The fibers will have expanded to receive the oil. You cannot see it. You now need to burnish it. Burnishing is the re-compacting of the grain. Why?
Think of hitting a nail and missing. What happens to the surface of the wood? A dent, right? Now imagine your wooden weapon hitting another weapon. A dent! That's compacting the grain. Now imagine ten thousand strikes all over the surface, compacting all the grain on your weapon and NOT theirs. But it is not just a case of a harder surface, it also sets up a nice relaxed resonance, an integrity, to your weapon. You will feel it.

So... How do you burnish? It is best done with two people; one holds and turns the stick, one burnishes.
Take the weapon out of the oil bath and wipe it down. Get a long, smooth barreled screw driver. Hold it perpendicular to the length of the weapon. And start rubbing with as much pressure as you can sustain. What will happen is you will see a lot of oil start pouring out of the wood as the grain is re-compacted. The rubbed area will take on a sheen. This makes it easy to know where you worked and where you didn't.

As you work the surface, the other person turns the stick. When you are done. You still need to wipe it down until it is dry.
Do this twice a year and your weapons will last a life time with less dents and no cracks. I have worked with 60 year old weapons. Some of mine are 25 yrs old.
FWIW, this treatment works on all woods except the heavy oil-soaked exotics (certain ebonies and cocobolos etc.) which make terrible weapons anyway as they are too hard and will shatter with heavy impact.

Hah! That said, it's Sat. morning and I have to go teach a three hour weapons class!!
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby Zonker on Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:57 pm

Ditto on the clarification of using boiled linseed oil! Regular linseed oil will leave a sticky residue that never really goes away and can hinder free movement, hand switching, sliding through your hand, etc. Personally, I always used teak oil for my jo, bokktou, and bo. It's more expensive than boiled linseed oil, but it penetrates the wood better when applied with a brush or rag. You can always find teak oil at marine supply places. If you can't find teak oil, I suggest that you use PVC tubing, capped at an end, filled up with the boiled linseed oil and let the weapon soak in that for about two days. Then let it air dry for another two-three days, maybe longer, depending on how humid it is where you're located. Check the weapons when they arrive and make sure that they weren't sprayed with any oil before they left Tozando's manufacturer!!! If they were treated, you have to get as much of that oil off, as you can with 400 grit wet/dry paper,before you use either teak or boiled linseed oil!
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:36 pm

Try mixing turpentine with linseed for greater penetration into the wood
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby Lu da on Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:32 pm

True tung oil penetrates the wood very well. The downside is that it takes forever to dry. True tung oil dries in about a month. There are many products for sale that claim to be tung oil but are really just thinned varnishes. Formbys tung oil comes to mind. While formbys is a wonderful product and with repeated thin coats can make a wonderful sealant for furniture, it lacks any serious penetration like true tung oil. I really liked the suggestion of soaking a staff in a PVC pipe filled with oil. I can't make any ckaims about the effectiveness of it but it seems like it would allow for saturation.

I saw a 24 x 24 inch beam in a castle in Germany that was 600 years old and had never started to crack or split. They cured the wood by soaking it in water and drying it for 10 years.
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Re: Staff recommendation (for all MA)

Postby KEND on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:15 am

Used to use linseed oil on our cricket bats when I was a kid-do they use it in baseball?
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