Silk Reeling Chou Si / Chan Si Jin

[D_Glenn]

The term Silk-Pulling (aka silk reeling) (抽絲 Chou Si) is a type of skill or capability that refers to the saying 抽絲剝繭 chōu​sī​bāo​jiǎn (a cocoon can only be unwound one layer at a time/ a painstaking step by step process) and only with meticulous study and attention to the finer details will a result come about, or come to an end. Like a detective who spends years of his life to investigating a case and only eventually catches the criminal by going over and over the evidence and paying attention to all the hidden clues.

In the IMAs the 抽絲 Chou Si skill comes mainly from following the rule of 'One part moves, every part moves' which then leads to 'The Root moves the Tip', which in itself is really a difficult thing because trees have roots embedded in the ground, but the tips of the branches can move easily in the breeze and the beginner/ novice martial artist is kind of like that tree and it takes a lot of practice and 抽絲剝繭 chōu​sī​bāo​jiǎn (attention, attentiveness, analyzing little details, going over everything with a fine tooth comb, leaving no stone unturned, etc.) where you can then move your Root to shake the Tip, or an outside force cannot move your Tip or Root.

In older times the silk-pullers couldn't afford to kill the worms in their cocoons and would have to let them chew their way out and Pull Silk (抽絲 Chou Si) from a cocoon that had numerous breaks in the thread. It required trained specialists to do the task and was handed down within families because each family had their own tradecraft method of doing it. After the threads were pulled from the cocoons and wound around a spindle, then two spindles could be twisted, twined around (纏繞 chán​rào) one another to make a silk thread. Which is the 纏絲 Chán Si (Winding Silk) in the IMAs.

The body is divided up into sections called the 三節 Sān Jiē. The whole body is divided into 3 sections, (and listed in order of Root (本 běn) to Tip(末 mò)): legs, torso, arms. The Torso is: Tailbone, Waist (Dantian), chest. The arm is: shoulder, elbow, hand. The leg is: hip, knee, ankle.

Moving the root and then having the connected segments link up and efficiently transfer the movement out to the tip, or transfer the stillness back down to the root is called having/ achieving the Three Harmonies/ Unities (三合 Sān Hé).

So having a 抽絲 Chou Si Quality in your body is an easy way of saying all the numerous Harmonies or Unities that occur in the 3 sections of the 2 arms + the 3 sections of the torso + the 3 sections of the 2 legs, which is just a lot of numbers.

Connecting the 三節 Sān Jiē is achieved by doing all of one's movements in a 纏絲 Chán Si (Winding Silk) manner, even if though novice hasn't actually pulled all the silk yet, (you pull (抽 Chou) some silk, then you wind (纏 Chán) some silk, and repeat the process).

The 纏絲 Chán Si (Winding Silk) way of moving is achieved through a combination of slow, large movements and fast, large movements, where one is, at first clumsily, connecting the sections of the body, but over time changing these individual 三節 Sān Jiē (3 sections) into 三合 Sān Hé (3 unified sections). It's important to find the true/ real Harmony (capable of being Unified under the duress of a fight) by practicing not only slow but also at full speed as, like the expert silk-puller, the silk is twined at a rapid speed under varying amount of tensions to keep the thread from just unraveling, and if you can only achieve the Harmonies when moving slow, it will probably just come unraveled when you go to actually use it.



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[NoSword]

Great post, been killing it lately. Thanks

Your posts hoped me contextualize and validate the things I was shown in Taiwan, great oral tradition, keep it alive.

AK

[D_Glenn]

Thanks.
It actually helps me a lot to write it down. Clears up some space in the ole' noggin.


In Xingyi and Baguazhang the 'Chan Si' or 'Chan Fa' is accomplished in every movement, where in every movement, the arms, shoulders, chest and waist, should have 起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan (Rising, Drilling, Lowering, Overturning). Where, say, the movement of the outgoing attacking arm is not just Rising but it's also, at the same time, Drilling. When it then becomes the supporting hand it isn't just Lowering but it lowers down and Overturns. Since we have 2 arms- all four (起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan) should be happening at the same time. The movement of the arms should also go down into the torso section and even sometimes into the legs (although the legs are typically generating their own forces). This results in a a whole-body twisting and twining- winding-up then releasing, winding-up on the other side then releasing. This works, via stretching and relaxing, to allow a smooth, gliding and coordinated interaction and connection of the different 筋膜 Jīnmó (Membranes that encase the muscles) of the whole body, (especially from the tip of fingers down to the Dantian).

This continual 纏 'Chan' (Winding; Twining) the various tissues and joints of the body begins to figuratively turn the Silk Thread (that is running through and connecting/ unifying the whole body together), into a Steel Thread or Wire (鋼絲 Gāng​sī). But it's not like a regular wire that can be bent back and forth a few times and break but instead it's like a heat treated wire which makes it function like a spring (彈簧 Tán​huáng), so that it can bend without breaking and bounce back, or rather is flexible and strong in any position it's put in. So then once you have this quality developed you can bend the sections, or move them in any order (tip before root, middle before either, etc.) or manner and still manifest the strength and connection of the Three Harmonies (三合 Sān Hé) at any moment in a fight.

In Bagua this is called 1st developing the Qian Trigram ( ☰ Three Solid Lines) representing the Spring Steel Wire being established; and then you can divide back up the Sections (節 Jiē) and work on changing the Qian Trigram into the Kun Trigram ( ☷ Three Broken Lines) which represents the freedom of movement in order to flow-with and Follow (隨 Suí) the opponent's movements:

...As one famous Taiji Quan master said "If you want to talk about number of techniques, then I say no matter how many techniques you have, I will always have one more - follow".

The postures of Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi are mere examples of general underlying principles. In the example of Taiji above, we say we don't come to a fight with pre-designed plan of winning, the opponent, with the movement he uses, is going to tell us how we can win. We win not because we know ahead everything he has studied, and having researched the specific counters for those, but by relying on general ability to relax-follow-listen-control any movement another human being can perform. Hence the line from Classic "Taiji itself has no techniques, movement itself is the technique." This is what is meant by "the ultimate technique is no technique". Same for Bagua and Xingyi.

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[D_Glenn]

The continual 纏 絲 'Chan Si' (Winding; Twining of silk) of the various tissues and joints of the body begins to figuratively turn the Silk Thread (that is running through and connecting/ unifying the whole body together), into a Steel Thread or Wire (鋼絲 Gāng​sī) -- but this strength doesn't come from a single strand of thread or wire but from many threads being twisted and braided together like a thick rope or thick steel cable. The thousands of little loops in the braids function like the links of a chain(連環 Lianhuan) and it's a continuous link from one end of the chain to the other. But there are hollow places inside each link of the chain and it can, or has to lengthen the distance of the hollow spaces in each link before it connects one end to the other. Where in the steel cable/ or silk that's been braided into a rope and is stronger than steel (鋼絲 Gāng​sī lit. strong silk) the pull, or push against one end can immediately effect the other end (the tip effecting the root, the root effecting the tip). Your whole arm is like a cable that runs down through your torso to Dantian, then down into the legs. This is 'Continuous; Unbroken Continuity' (連綿 Lianmian) which is just shortened into 連 Lian or 綿 Mian (in order to be a single character) and gives us 連 Lian and 隨 Suí (Continuous and Following) or in our Baguazhang we use 綿 Mian and 隨 Suí (Continuous and Following).

In Baguazhang, Xin-yi/ Xingyiquan, and Taijiquan we don't talk about the number of techniques, there is potentially a lot of techniques to give variety and relieve boredom, but really one just needs 3 techniques or movements to train the body. Three techniques to Pull the Silk (抽絲 Chou Si), Wind/ Twine the Silk (纏絲 Chán Si), where eventually enough threads are braided into a strong rope or steel cable ((鋼絲 Gāng​sī), which then gives you the whole body quality of 'Unbroken Continuity' (連綿 Lianmian) and then the only technique, or Strategy rather, that you need is 隨 Suí (Following) the opponent.

In Xin-yi these 3 techniques are the 'Old Three Fists' (老三拳​ Lǎo Sān Quán). In Taijiquan it's the Three Abilities (三才 Sān Cái). In Baguazhang these are called the 'Old Three Palms' (老三掌​ Lǎo Sān Zhǎng).

The 老三掌​ Lǎo Sān Zhǎng uses the 1st method/ capability (能 Néng) of Baguazhang called 削 Xiāo (to Slice, like with a paring knife), which is figuratively the first knife you learn to use in the kitchen: the paring knife to slice the skin off a vegetables like cucumbers. These 3 palms/ movements have numerous basic applications, they cover the inside, they cover the outside, they work on the diagonal to cover high and low but the most important thing is that you are repetitively moving your whole body in a 纏絲 'Chan Si' (Winding; Twisting) manner (using 起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan /Rising, Drilling, Lowering, Overturning) to develop your 纏絲勁 'Chan Si Jin' (aka Silk Reeling Power). -- Three moves, One Method, and One strategy, which is not even a preplanned or thought out strategy as it's just 'To 隨 Suí (Follow) your opponent'.


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[cdobe]

Taiji has 老三著, but it is a pushing hands exercise. What is your source for 三才?

[D_Glenn]

Taiji has 老三著, but it is a pushing hands exercise. What is your source for 三才?

I'm not sure. I'm writing from memory. Taiji has/ had the San Cai Zhuang. It could also be "3 old cuts/ slices" which I think might be Lao San Xiao and that might be what I'm thinking of.

Here's an old thread: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php? ... &sk=t&sd=a

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[dspyrido]

Great post, been killing it lately. Thanks

Your posts hoped me contextualize and validate the things I was shown in Taiwan, great oral tradition, keep it alive.

AK

+11 great stuff d_glenn

[johnwang]

[i]The continual 纏 絲 'Chan Si' (Winding; Twining of silk) .

What's the difference between Bagua Chan Si Jin and Baji Chan Si Jin as shown at 2.38 in the following clip?

[D_Glenn]

[i]The continual 纏 絲 'Chan Si' (Winding; Twining of silk) .

What's the difference between Bagua Chan Si Jin and Baji Chan Si Jin as shown at 2.38 in the following clip?

I guess you could say the difference is that we don't have a specific exercise for it because it's practiced and developed in every practice, exercise, drill, etc. that we do. Using 起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan /Rising, Drilling, Lowering, Overturning in a continuous, smooth motion, throughout the whole body- arms, torso, legs.

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[johnwang]

we don't have a specific exercise for it because it's practiced and developed in every practice, exercise, drill, etc. that we do.

This is also the problem for the longfist system as well. A longfist teacher may tell his student that he will develop something if he just stay with the system long enough. But he can't tell his student, "If you repeat this drill ... times, you will develop ...".

IMO, every special TCMA skill/ability should be able to map to a special training drill if we look hard enough. The reason that I like Baji is as long as I repeat on the right drill, I will be able to develop something. It's very scientific.

[D_Glenn]

I guess you could say it's specifically worked in Baguazhang's Lao San Zhang (old three palms), which I already mentioned. These are 3 movements - Rising Xiao, Downward Xiao, Inward Xiao. And they can be drilled while standing in place like in that Baji Clip, or done while drilling the movements in an 'S'-shaped line, or drilled in a two-step (advancing & back-stepping) around the four corners of a square, or 3-step method combined on a single line (1 stationary strike, 1 advance step, and 1 back step, then repeat in the other direction).

But 纏 絲 'Chan Si' is also developed in other Basic strikes to some degree or another but the Lao San Zhang are the primary method for developing it and what you always go back to, it's like the 'breakfast' of Bagua and you always need to eat your breakfast in the morning.

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[jaime_g]

The continual 纏 絲 'Chan Si' (Winding; Twining of silk) of the various tissues and joints of the body begins to figuratively turn the Silk Thread (that is running through and connecting/ unifying the whole body together), into a Steel Thread or Wire (鋼絲 Gāng​sī) -- but this strength doesn't come from a single strand of thread or wire but from many threads being twisted and braided together like a thick rope or thick steel cable. The thousands of little loops in the braids function like the links of a chain(連環 Lianhuan) and it's a continuous link from one end of the chain to the other. But there are hollow places inside each link of the chain and it can, or has to lengthen the distance of the hollow spaces in each link before it connects one end to the other. Where in the steel cable/ or silk that's been braided into a rope and is stronger than steel (鋼絲 Gāng​sī lit. strong silk) the pull, or push against one end can immediately effect the other end (the tip effecting the root, the root effecting the tip). Your whole arm is like a cable that runs down through your torso to Dantian, then down into the legs. This is 'Continuous; Unbroken Continuity' (連綿 Lianmian) which is just shortened into 連 Lian or 綿 Mian (in order to be a single character) and gives us 連 Lian and 隨 Suí (Continuous and Following) or in our Baguazhang we use 綿 Mian and 隨 Suí (Continuous and Following).

I didnt know anything about gangsi. Really liked the text, could you expand it?

[edededed]

YMMV, but as far as I know chansijin is a characteristic of Chen style taijiquan, while chousijin is a characteristic of Yang style taijiquan. IME, baguazhang does not talk about chansijin or chousijin, but instead has its own luoxuanjin (螺旋勁). Xingyiquan also has its own kind of jin, and does not talk about chansijin or chousijin, either.

IME, both baguazhang and xingyiquan usually have specific drills for specific skills; but perhaps xingyiquan is better structured in levels compared to baguazhang, which seems a bit haphazard (but more comprehensive)...

[johnwang]

I don't know about Bagua, but the Baji chansijin and the Chen Taiji chansijin seem to be quite different.

My simple question is "why do we need it? What's the difference if you have it vs. if you don't have it?"

[D_Glenn]

I didnt know anything about gangsi. Really liked the text, could you expand it?

鋼絲 Gāng​sī (Steel Wire) is made from Spring (彈簧 Tán​huáng) Steel and an example is a Piano Wire that can withstand a lot of tension end to end, it's also difficult to cut since it's cold-rolled steel, and it's really flexible but returns to it's original shape afterward.

I don't know the exact history of when the Europeans brought piano wire to China but for them it was the next best thing since sliced bread. So much strength and flexibility in such a thin thread and was stronger than the ropes that were significantly thicker than the wire. So the concept is that it's something that's strong, yet thin and flexible because it's been forged in the same manner as spring steel.

Some Chinese had drawn coiled lines around the body and limbs but that's more a misunderstanding of what 彈簧 Tán​huáng meant. We had a similar debate on here about it being a coil-spring or a leaf spring but really it's about the type of steel and the manufacturing process to make the wire but most of the misunderstandings have come from Chinese who didn't understand and wrote it down. But really when it comes to analogies - since a concept was written down and is now part of the record then it's still worth mentioning because it may have some value since we're just talking metaphorically.

The real idea is that it's a tedious boring process to pull silk, but it's not going to get done by thinking about, so you might as well do it everyday: 抽絲剝繭 chōu​sī​bāo​jiǎn (a cocoon can only be unwound one layer/ one thread at a time/ a painstaking step by step process).

Then just keep twisting and winding (纏 Chán) your body to keep making the thread/ piano wire thicker and thicker, even when you think that you've done it enough and achieved something, still just keep at it. In Baguazhang the Jibengong (Basic Practices) are never finished, as your body changes and adapts the practices will also slightly adapt but there's no real separation of beginning students from an advanced student.


I can't really add much more to an overcomplicated subject that has been already been 橫生枝節 héng​shēng​zhī​jié (to deliberately make more complicated). An idiom that I believe comes from the practice to cut off a branch of a plant, say a rose bush, below a knot and then replant it/ clone it, but until the trimming can take root and produce flowers, you just have one original rose bush (the original analogy or concept of it) that's now ugly and cut up and a bunch of branches sticking out of the ground that makes it all big mess of twigs. And once the clones grow up you may not know what the original meaning was.

It is best to cut the plant about 1/2cm-1cm/1/4 inch to 1/2 inch below a knot (a knot has two small branches or two leaves) because roots tend to grow around and underneath a knot.

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