If I may ask , why splitting the silk?

[cdobe]

Fwiw, I think ya'll are talking about several different concepts of spiral at the same time. The universe is spatially 3D (or 4D, if time is considered). Nothing is 2D, not even an atom. However, cdobe's description of spirals as 2D is accurate for mathematics or geometry, where concepts are written or drawn on paper. So, for all purposes, a "spiral" drawn on a piece of paper is "2D" and there is a clear difference between a spiral and a circle: one being the description of a point that travels in space and returns to its origin -while maintaining the exact same distance from a center; and the other being the description of a point that travels with an ever increasing or decreasing distance from a center. Imo, it's the movement of the point that's important, not the geometrical difference between spiral/helix and circles/parabola.

In the world, take any length of rope and coil it flat on the ground. It forms a spiral. Pick it up from the center; it will form a spiral. Take it and wrap it around a cylinder; it will form a spiral. Now, in this sense, the difference between spirals and circles is that circles are always finite because they must be stationary. Once they are moving in space, even a circular movement will be a spiral.

I think you have a strange idea of mathematics. It has nothing to do with drawing things on paper or not. Mathematical objects are described by formulas and sometimes, for visualization purposes outlined on a piece of paper.

There is a big difference whether the point moves in one plane or whether it also moves along a third dimension.

[windwalker]

21:26 talks about spiral

[Steve James]

There is a big difference whether the point moves in one plane or whether it also moves along a third dimension.

?? Well, yeah, and I don't think I suggested anything different. My only real argument was with differentiating between circular and spiral movement. But, it's not worth arguing.

Anyway, the Fibonacci sequence is fascinating, and ubiquitous in nature (not restricted to any tcc style):) However, a lot of study has been put (in terms of solid, not plane geometry) on toroids (i.e., donuts). They are objects that contain endless circles and spirals.


Edit: I know, seems ot; but, it's the "endless" quality of motion that prevents the silk strand from breaking. Certain shapes (seem to) illustrate that quality. Speaking of math, here's an Escheresque illustration. The Mobius torus.

[WVMark]

Actually a spiral is two-dimensional, although it is so often confused with a helix or vortex that some dictionaries see those as legitimate synonyms.

A lot of people disagree with your interpretation of a spiral only being 2D. In fact, it's defined in most dictionaries as also being 3D. A spiral is three-dimensional when talked about in most martial arts, not two-dimensional.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spiral
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spiral?s=t
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spiral

The dictionaries record how people use these words. Many people have wrong ideas and concepts and it gets perpetuated until the mistake becomes "common knowledge".

Its projection is a spiral. Why would you insist on using the word spiral when another word describes your ideas more accurately?

Because you have the wrong idea and concept, not everyone else. Etymology of spiral includes three dimensions from way back to the mid 13th century. I've already linked to the definitions of three different dictionaries which define spirals in three dimensions. Geometry is three dimensions. Books are spiral bound, not helix bound. It's a spiral galaxy not a helix galaxy. Mathematically, the main reason some spirals (seashells, etc) are shown in 2D is to dissect them and put it on a graph to determine the type of spiral, eg Archimedean, hyperbolic, logarithmic, etc. But that doesn't constrain the spiral to 2D at all. Just to determine the type.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spiral

Spiral is defined as I've said. You can either agree with billions of people on the planet from as far back as the mid 13th century or disagree with pretty much everyone. Clarity, as you noted previously, is on the side of the billions of people. Doesn't much matter to me which way you go, but for the rest of the martial world, when we talk about spirals, it's three dimensional. That's clear. If you think about spirals as two dimensions in the martial world, you'll fail. And that's clear as a bright, cloudless day when you train with someone who is using spirals in three dimensions.

Anyway, it's off topic. That's the last I'll say on it.

On topic: Chousijin and chansijin

Silk pulling. I view this as a way to take the slack out of the body, train whole body use, and most importantly link every point in the body to the dantien/center/whatever you call it.

Silk reeling. Internal spirals.

Mark

[cdobe]

Because you have the wrong idea and concept, not everyone else. Etymology of spiral includes three dimensions from way back to the mid 13th century. I've already linked to the definitions of three different dictionaries which define spirals in three dimensions. Geometry is three dimensions. Books are spiral bound, not helix bound. It's a spiral galaxy not a helix galaxy. Mathematically, the main reason some spirals (seashells, etc) are shown in 2D is to dissect them and put it on a graph to determine the type of spiral, eg Archimedean, hyperbolic, logarithmic, etc. But that doesn't constrain the spiral to 2D at all. Just to determine the type.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spiral

Spiral is defined as I've said. You can either agree with billions of people on the planet from as far back as the mid 13th century or disagree with pretty much everyone. Clarity, as you noted previously, is on the side of the billions of people. Doesn't much matter to me which way you go, but for the rest of the martial world, when we talk about spirals, it's three dimensional. That's clear. If you think about spirals as two dimensions in the martial world, you'll fail. And that's clear as a bright, cloudless day when you train with someone who is using spirals in three dimensions.

Anyway, it's off topic. That's the last I'll say on it.

On topic: Chousijin and chansijin

Silk pulling. I view this as a way to take the slack out of the body, train whole body use, and most importantly link every point in the body to the dantien/center/whatever you call it.

Silk reeling. Internal spirals.

Mark

There are some groups of people, including esoterics and neijia people, who love the word spiral so much, they are defending its incorrect usage no matter what. As it has been said on the Buddhist lady thread: "You can't argue with emotion".

Spiral galaxies are relatively flat, disk-shaped objects and when looked at the "top" or "bottom" resemble spirals.



Your whole argument comes down to a lot of people call them spirals, which I already addressed and is kind of the point for me to post about this error. But I guess a billion flies can't be wrong.