Where did the thread about Ming Jin go?

[D_Glenn]

Tom had posted an article that had a theory that 'Ming Jin' = equals Lightning traveling through the bones of the body.
edit ~ [ http://cattanga.typepad.com/ ]

I was taught that the concept of the 'Ming Jin Stage' in Xingyiquan is to use large, obvious movements in order to learn the 波浪劲 'Bolang Jin'* (Crashing Wave Movement/ Power) which is an intricate movement of the spine in order to 發力 Fa Li / 發勁 Fa jin (Issuing; Emitting; Sending out Force), which is like a secondary force that's added into the initial 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​lì (impact) of a strike or throw.

Also, after learning to use the mechanical movement of the spine to add a 'Ming Jin' (easily felt, obvious power/force) and effect on the opponent, where they're moved by it, or they move to get away from it, then one can begin to practice to refine the movements of their spine and the 'Bolang Jin' and do it in a more relaxed manner where it can then start to have more of a 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) as well, which is a kind of third force or wave happening inside the initial 'Impact' that can feel like kind of like a jolt or other strange or damaging effects on an opponent. This learning phase is still obvious as to what you're doing but as it becomes smoother and more fluid is where you actually start to cross-over or transition into the 'An (Hidden) Jin (Movement/ Power) because the 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) can inflict damage but without a large mechanical movement and this also then requires another level of tactics to accompany the change in mechanics as the opponent is no longer being physically moved away by the strike so the footwork and movement in relation to the opponent needs to be changed.

So I don't think 'Ming Jin' should be translated to actually mean the 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) as it is what it is: Ming (Clear to see; Obvious) Jin (martial movement).

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Some quick translations I'd done from Chinese texts:


懂劲的三个阶段 明劲、暗劲、化劲。

　　1．明劲 要做到劲整形齐，舒展其力，使劲力通、透、穿、贴、松、悍、合、坚，成为抖绝劲、爆炸劲，一绝无有不绝。在平时练习基本拳法时，手磨外五行、肘磨内五行，进退如曲腿蹚泥，又如“泥犁行”，此谓明劲阶段。

　　2．暗劲 在掌握明劲阶段的基础上，再进一步，使劲含而不露、蓄而不发，蓄意蓄劲、待而不发，以尽《山西六合心意拳》以静制动、后发制人之妙用。此谓“履薄冰”暗劲阶段。

　　3．化劲 此谓《山西六合心意拳》的高级阶段。在掌握明劲、暗劲的基础上，在与人较技中，切记舍己从人，沾连粘随；处处虚无不着力，整体浑元不弹簧，日久功深达到人不知我，我独知人，一触即发、发则必中之高超之境。应敌犹如“水中游”，此谓化劲阶段。


{Understanding [Xin-Yi/ Xingyiquan's] 3 stages (jieduan) of Ming Jin, An Jin, and Hua Jin.

1 - Ming (Clear to see) Jin - The strength and form must be strong, precise, and clear. Extend outward with force. When putting out force it must pass through, penetrate, pierce, connect, be pliant, ferocious, round, firm, have a shaking cutting strength, and deliver explosive force. Practice and drill the hand techniques developing the external 5-Elements and the elbows to develop the internal 5-Elements. Advancing and retreating with bent legs as if wading through mud (tang ni) like "walking while plowing through mud". This is the stage of Ming Jin.

2- An (hidden) Jin - You must have already grasped and have a strong foundation in the Mingjin stage then you can start on the second stage. Now when using strength you contain it and don't reveal it on the outside. Store up (xu) but don't emit (fa). Deliberately store up your Jin. The power to 'fa' emit is held back but not released, to the opponent this feels very powerful and strange and then you can emit. This is called "Treading on thin Ice" [And the feeling is like when walking on an iced-over lake and never knowing when, or if, you're going to break through the ice.]. This is the stage of Anjin.

3- Hua (transforming) Jin - This is considered the highest stage of practice. You must have already grasped the stages of Mingjin and Anjin and have a very strong foundation in them. You should have a lot of experience in fighting as you must know that this stage is 'Sheji Cong Ren' [same as the Taijiquan] Give up yourself and comply with the opponent. Use 'Zhan, Lian, Nian, and Sui' (sticky, link, adhering, and complying). Everywhere you need to be empty and not exerting strength. The whole body must be blending and smooth (hunyuan) and not starting and stopping. The skill of 'The opponent does not know me, I alone know the opponent.' At any time, place, or moment you can emit (fa) but only emitting force at the precise moment. This is the Hua Jing stage.}


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* ~ 波浪劲 (Bolang Jin) ·翻浪劲”体用功法精义解

作者：马国兴

或问曰：心意拳和形意拳，都强调攻防较技之施招用手、施手用招的“波浪劲”和“翻浪劲”的用法。但是，什么是“波浪劲”、“翻浪劲”的法式呢？在攻防较技中施手用招、施招用手中“波浪劲”和“翻浪劲”确实有什么优势吗？这是为什么？“波浪劲”和“翻浪劲”功夫容易修炼成功吗？这些问题敬请您老不吝赐教！

答曰：是的！心意拳和形意拳都是遵从“意气君来骨肉臣”的内家拳法宗旨修炼、至用的拳种，这一点从拳谱中就可以明确的看得出来。

懂劲：

意拳是内功拳之一种，其气沉丹田，着意蓄发内劲，不论横，竖、斜、缠、松、悍、合、坚等劲，均得成为周身一体之整劲，富有弹力之抖绝打击，对方即会腾空跌出，达到学以致用之目的。否则，徒具优美之姿势和理解应用之方法，但敌人不为所动，而失去攻防艺术的价值，这就是不懂劲之缘故。

从这段懂劲的认识之论述中就可以清楚的看出来了，心意拳、形意拳都是极为重视内劲修炼、运用方法的。而“波浪劲、翻浪劲”只不过是内劲运用中的两种方法的名称而已。

“波浪劲、翻浪劲”名称的来源及运用方法

为什么名曰：“波浪劲、翻浪劲”呢？

因为古拳谱《易筋经·贯气诀·点气论》中有：

似梦地着惊，似悟道忽省，似皮肤无意然火星，似寒侵骨髓打战悚，想情景，疾快猛，原来是真气泓浓。震雷迅发，离火焰烘，洪水波涌。欲学不悟个中窍，丢却别寻哪得醒？

文中的“洪水波涌”之说法，就蕴含着“波浪劲、翻浪劲”修炼和至用的方法。犹如海水波浪向海边撞击的方向，称之为“波浪劲”；海水撞击海岸反向大海方向形成的回浪，称之为“翻浪劲”。

以身中劲势的用法为例，内劲由会阴起向后背运动的劲势名之曰“波浪劲”，乃从“打人全凭盖势取”的意思而得名；内劲由会阴起向前胸运动的劲势名之曰“翻浪劲”，乃从“探马势顺势揭掀”的意思而得名。

其实，就“波浪劲、翻浪劲”的得名因由的方法中，已经清楚的说明了“波浪劲、翻浪劲”的基本运用方法了

{Understanding the Underlying Methods and the Required Training Practices of Bolang Jin (Crashing Wave Power) & Fanlang Jin (Returning Wave Power)

{By: Ma Guoxing

{Some questions people might ask: Xin-Yi Quan and Xingyiquan both emphasize the skills of attack and defense using the arms and hands. In order to have skill in the arms it requires the use of "Bolang Jin" (BLJ) & "Fanlang Jin" (FLJ). But what is BLJ, FLJ and how do they work? Inside attacking and defending is the usage of the hands and arms. Inside the usage of the hands and arms is BLJ and FLJ. So what is the advantage and why are they used? Do BLJ and FLJ require Daoist Cultivation practices to be good?

{Answer: Yes!

{Xin-Yi Quan and Xingyiquan both follow the idea that "Intent (Yi) and 'Qi' are the lords while the bones and flesh are their servants." and the key to Internal Family Boxing is Daoist Cultivation practices and from the Cultivation practices one will gain better fighting skills. This is pointed out in the handed down 'Quan Pu' that once this is understood than real skill will arrive.

{To understand power: Intention (Yi) expressed outward in fighting, needs to be the same as it's happening inside the body. 'Qi' is sunk down to 'Dantian'. Movement/ Action begins as the Intent (Yi) Stores-up (蓄 xù) then Issues (發 fā) internal power (内劲 nèijìn). It doesn't matter if it's Horizontal, Vertical, Slanted, Winding, Relaxed, Ferocious, Harmonizing, or a Strong type of power as they're all equal when it comes to the whole-body, integrated as-one, power. It's Elastic, Trembling, and Short when it strikes. The other person will rise up and fall when it goes out. To obtain this one has to study diligently and apply it regularly. If not then the student will only have graceful movements, maybe a decent understanding of it, but is still not be able to affect the opponent, then they lose the true value of the martial art and have an incomplete understanding of the way power is used.} [In other words, in the beginning these practices need to be raw, violent, and powerful and won't look graceful or clean so that one can first find the raw mechanical skill in their own body, and then later, when it does look skillful and crisp, there is actual power that makes it a martial art.]

{The second part to understanding power: Xin-Yi Quan and Xingyiquan both put great emphasis on the Internal Cultivation of Power and that there is a clear method to achieve it. BLJ and FLJ are really nothing more than a way to bring Internal Power out/ put it to use and both cultivate and grow the internal power of the body but are only just a given name to describe the process.

{As they're really only a name given to discern the methods, then why do we call them: "BLJ and FLJ"?

{Because in the Ancient Boxing textbook "The Yi Jin Jing; Secrets of Moving Qi; and Theory of Qi Points" there is: [...several esoteric things I'm just gonna skip over...,] and returning back to one's original state where 'True Energy' (Zhen Qi) pools and concentrates. When the 'Zhen Trigram's' Thunder quickly Issues (發 fā), then the 'Li Trigram's' Fire blazes and heats, causing the Water to Surge Upward (洪水波涌 Hongshui Bo Yong). So the ancients in their quest to understand everything about the human body asked, since this is a natural function, how can we intentionally awaken it?

{In the classic writings of China, "洪水波涌 Hongshui Bo Yong", is another way to describe what happens in "BLJ and FLJ" and the Daoist Cultivation practices that go along with the methods. Since it's similar to the way the ocean waves crash and collide into the beach and as it's coming out from the body of water we call this method "BLJ"; After the wave has crashed into the coastline, is retreating back out to the sea, and forming the shape that makes a 'Returning Wave' (Hui Lang) we call this direction of 'returning to the body of water' the method of "FLJ".

{When using the middle of the body to generate Power and force - where the power comes up from the perineum (Huiyin Point) and around the back of the spine, we call this "BLJ",which is also called "Striking the enemy from over the top and putting a lid over their power", which isn't really the actual application, just a name; When power comes up from the perineum (Huiyin Point) and around the front of the chest, we call this "FLJ" and is also called "The Knight moves with the opponent's force and flips up the lid, exposing their insides", which again isn't really an application but just a name.

{In actuality "BLJ and FLJ" are just names for the methods of using the middle of the body [the torso] and only have meaning if one already has a basic understanding of their physical functions and usage as the names themselves don't really contain the instructions.}


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[GrahamB]

"Where did the thread about Ming Jin go?"

Maybe it evolved to be hidden?

In fact, where is Tom's post to an article anyway? Can't find a post here...

[D_Glenn]

In fact, where is Tom's post to an article anyway? Can't find a post here...

His post, which was basically just a link to the article, was the only post, and comprised the now missing thread that I'm talking about.

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[GrahamB]

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[D_Glenn]

That's the one.

I have to say I don't find anything good about it. It's totally inaccurate IMO. And it only further perpetuates the myth that just doing something called 'Xingyiquan' will give you magical powers to shoot "liquid lightning" out your arms.

This song about Beng Quan:

崩拳之形似箭
打出銳似箭

Should be:
{The shape of Beng Quan should be like a sharpened bamboo stick;
The strike should produce an acute pain (damage focused in one spot), like being stuck or impaled by something sharp.}

It's referring to getting all the power focused in one small point. Like how sharpened bamboo poles stuck in the ground can pierce through armor and impale charging horses. The power is in the sharpened point, backed up by the other end planted in the ground.



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[GrahamB]

Frankly, I'm not surprised you don't like it.

[GrahamB]

I don't blame him! I'll remove the link.

[D_Glenn]

Sorry Tom, He asked you, not me, and sometimes you just have to ruffle a few feathers and irritate a few people. We only live once.

So here's some translations and misinterpretations that I'd like to correct:

From ~ http://cattanga.typepad.com
The ancient Xingyiquan masters have written:
崩拳之形似箭 the form of beng quan is like an arrow
打出銳似箭 it is shot out as sharply as an arrow
性屬木 its elemental nature is wood

Therefore imagine your strike issuing lightly, cleanly, quickly, and sharply, just like an arrow. An arrow is very lightweight. This corresponds to the complete lack of tension in your body. You become pure shape, only 形, no ‘filler’ of muscular tension should exist in your body. Do not tense your shoulders, arms, or fists even slightly at any time during the practice. If you do, you’ll never feel the blast of energy I am describing.

In ancient times, arrows were made of wood tipped with iron, both light and strong. When you practice beng quan, imagine that you appear in the shape of a human being, but that your body is actually made of a very light wood, such as balsa wood. Balsa wood looks like ordinary wood, but when you pick it up you’ll always be surprised that it has almost no weight or density. It only has the appearance or form of ordinary, heavy wood. Bamboo has a similar strong- yet- light quality too. The feeling you need to develop was best expressed by Master Guo Yunshen (郭雲深) as follows: ‘起如箭落如風’, meaning : Your strike shoots out like an arrow and finishes (weightless) like the wind.

If you keep these ideas in mind, not as abstract philosophy but as specific practice requirements, you will begin to feel the surge of ming jing power in your arms as you strike. It will start as a very small squirt and you’ll think it’s nothing. Just keep nurturing it –the oak grows from the acorn.

The song about Beng Quan:
崩拳之形似箭
打出銳似箭

Should be translated:
{The shape of Beng Quan should be like a sharpened bamboo stick;
The strike should produce an acute pain (damage focused in one spot), like being stuck or impaled by something sharp.}



You can see in the picture that he's using the 'phoenix eye fist', some people use the 'dragon's eye fist'/ 'chicken head fist' (middle knuckle protruding instead of the index finger), which is to focus the strike into a smaller point to break a rib or if it lands between two ribs it can crack both. When 'Beng Quan' is done lower you can just use a square fist to try and break the pubis bones on the sides or rupture the bladder in the middle.

These Songs/ Classics, oral teachings that some students in the past had written down in their private notes (Quanpu) were only meant to be understood by the people who were in the lineage and had gained the trust of the teacher. They were encoded so that if someone overheard the teacher telling them to a student they wouldn't know wtf they were talking about.

The song about Beng Quan is a perfect example, where they use an older definition of 箭 Jian. Compare to this other song where they use the common definition of the word 箭 Jian - an Arrow:

起如箭落如風 Qi ru jian la ru feng

{Launch the attack as if it was like an arrow leaving the string [sudden and abrupt] and where all that you hear and feel is the wind [made by the feathers on the arrow]}

Which basically is saying to attack without telegraphing and the strike should be fast.


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[wayne hansen]

This is how I have always seen hsing I.
Most practicioners I see seem to feel the need to apply extra force that does not come from purity of form .

[D_Glenn]

Devlin, the author does not post here, so I'm not sure that you'll get any argument/dialogue back about the different interpretations.

I was joking and paying homage to what he wrote. I feel a sort of kinship with him now as I've been 'hung', ridiculed, and insulted more times than I can count on this forum.

I don't care if he wants to argue. I don't want to argue with anyone. I just wanted to post some different translations for those texts and start a discussion around them.

On the other hand, if you want to ruffle feathers and irritate people, go to the Chousi/Chansi thread and explain through character-dictionary-based interpretations of old Chinese writings how Dan's interpretation of chousi and chansi is different than yours and therefore wrong.

I agree with Dan's interpretation of Chousi and Chansi 100%.

He's one of a small number of people out there who I don't think is wrong.


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[GrahamB]

Rum Soaked Fist - home of dictionary-based Chinese martial arts.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

[Doc Stier]

C'mon, Graham. There's nothing wrong with being a 'Scholar-Warrior', provided that one actually is both!

[dspyrido]

Well fwiw I think scotts article gets it wrong in a few places & thats before it deep dives into ming jing.

Now although devlins post is full of translations I am glad they are there. After all the term is cma origin, is nonsensicle in English & I sure as hell dont have ability/time to get mandarin or dialects.

[I am...]

So, without getting into an argument over this specific translation, since I do not have the language skills that would qualify me to credibly engage in that argument, I would rather have correct translations or no translations rather than hobbyist-level interpretations filled with allusions unstated in the original text that support a particular preconception about what are, after all, fairly abstruse topics.

The ultimate test for me is practical. Does a particular interpretation of a classic match up with actual practice? Does the interpreter have the practical skill to demonstrate what he/she is translating? This doesn't mean that only Guo Yunshen (or Li Luoneng, or Sun Lutang) can translate Guo Yunshen's essay. But since so much conventional xingyi is understood, taught and practiced as a kind of lumbering karate, I don't think that a high-level understanding of xingyi informs a lot of the translations of xingyi classics.

But that's just my opinion, and I don't train xingyiquan. I know competent teachers who do, and they tend to agree that xingyi is misunderstood because the "look and feel" of the external moves feels so simple, clear and "street-ready". These point out, for example, that the wuxing are trained at least as much or more for shenfa and moving with internal connection as they are for specific technique/usage.

I agree completely. These concepts are already so purposefully hidden and misunderstood that imprecise wording can easily take things in directions that are not necessary for understanding them clearly. I used to read stuff like this and sit there imagining how awesome it was and how mystical it must feel to do it. Now I know first hand that the skill IS amazing, but that it can be described, although it is much, much easier in person or even via video than with words.

In essence: carry the body in such a way that contact causes compression along favorable angles. Strengthen the connections, tissues, and instinct of how to use these angles and as they become more familiar, use different contact points and hold the body in different shapes on contact to flesh out the body knowledge so that one is not so limited. Relax into trusting the new model over the old. Use big circles and curves to feel and strengthen what one wishes to be good at, over time these become smaller and smaller yet the same effect is achieved. Begin to use the torso to learn the methods described as BLJ and FLJ, and integrate them over time into one's existing movement skill set. Relax and get out of the way of the power and become conscious of the elasticity and springs in the body to a higher degree. Eventually end up not having to think about any of it, doing it with very small relaxed motions, and mobilizing most of the body mass behind most movements. At that point even BLJ and FLJ (or float, sink, spit, swallow) will become abstractions that only partially describe the myriad of ways the body can now receive and express force comfortably. Proceed to amaze people when you put your hands on them and keep refining it for the rest of your life.

[D_Glenn]

As an example, a professional who works with Mandarin for a living wrote me about the following phrase from Guo Yunshen's essay:

起如箭落如風 Qi ru jian la ru feng

The Chinese says nothing about hearing and seeing anything nor does it mention feathers on the arrow. The word is "luo" (not "la") and it means to fall, descend, or land.

Literally it is just, character by character:
rise/begin . like . arrow . fall . like . wind

I try to share some of the information that I was told about Xingyi/ Xin-Yi Quan, when the opportunity comes up in the forum. But in a hurry to post, I thought it was the 'La' pronunciation but it is 'Luo'.

But in China there is contention over whether the sound, or feeling of wind is from when you are shooting the arrow, but how could an arrow fall from a bow, it would just fall on the ground; So the other idea is that it's the arrows going up in an arch and then falling from the sky and when one is nearly hit, or a near miss, then you hear a sound and feel the brush of air or wind that it makes, (like a when a rock or mudball just barely misses your head), but then the counter argument to that is that no one really knows what it's like to be in a battle with arrows raining down from the sky so why would the analogy be for that; so maybe it is for when the arrow leaves the string and it has to do with that Mongolian thumb ring, called thumb shooting or something, where you have your hand closed holding your own thumb, and to shoot, you just open your hand and let the thumb 'luo'. There was an RSF thread about archery and using the thumb ring and when done correctly it's supposed to be easier to hold the bow open, it's almost passive, which also fits the Song.

If I can remember more I'll try to post it.

But the other important thing is the sound of wind is associated with our tendons, on the health side- too much wind dries can dry up the tendons, etc., but the use of tendons and fascia in the martial movements is a whole other topic, which Bodywork is kind of getting into in the silk reeling thread.

Cheers

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