Where did the thread about Ming Jin go?

[GrahamB]

I take issue with your translation of that book title Tom! :-P

[Doc Stier]

And of course, the distinct possibility remains that these enigmatic texts and 'songs' are merely analogies of simple truths hidden in plain view, which are often obscured by misdirected intellectual gymnastics.

Overthinking: the fine art of creating problems where none exists!

[dspyrido]

Perhaps these songs contain gems waiting for the student to appear (ie mature after they have pursued ima's deeper) & recognise what was hiding in plain site.

I read "guos" stuff decades ago & initially just skipped it for mumbo jumbo. Every 5 or so years I drift back & seem to feel I understand what was being said just a little more each time. At this rate in the next 30 years I am hoping to get it. I cant say the same for the rest of robert smith's book. I read it now & the guo writing's is for me actually the best section in his hsing-i book (regardless of who authored that section or even if the translation might be flawed).

Sure some might cry it is an excercise in self delusion but thats fine - I am happy to keep an open mind & keep training, learning, testing & exploring vs. dismissing what may proove to be an an inflection point in life.

As a caveat - 1 reread every 5 years for 30min for perhaps every 1-2 thousands of hours of training. Sounds like a fair ratio.

[D_Glenn]

I read "guos" stuff decades ago & initially just skipped it for mumbo jumbo.

Here's the important part of his text, about the martial stuff that we're discussing.

~ http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... -teachers/
形意拳之用法。有三層。有有形有像之用。有有名有相無迹之用。有有聲有名無形之用。有無形無相無聲無臭之用。拳經云。起如鋼銼。起者去也。落如鈎竿。落者回也。未起如摘子。未落如墜子。起如箭。落如風。追風趕月不放鬆。起如風。落如箭。打倒還嫌慢。足打七分。手打三。五行四稍要合全。氣連心意隨時用。硬打硬進無遮攔。打人如走路。看人如嵩草。胆上如風響。起落似箭鑽。進步不勝。必有寒食之心。此是初步明勁。有形有相之用也。到暗勁之時。用法更妙。起似伏龍登天。落如霹雷擊地。起無形。落無踪。起意好似捲地風。起不起。何用再起落不落。何用再落。低之中望為高。高之中望為低。打起落如水之翻浪。不翻不躦。一寸為先。脚打七分手打三。五行四稍要合全。氣連心意隨時用。打破身式無遮攔。此是二步暗勁形迹有無之用也。拳無拳。意無意。無意之中。是真意。拳打三節不見形。如見形影不為能。隨時而發。一言一默。一舉一動。行止坐臥。以致飲食茶水之間。皆是用。或有人處。或無人處。無處不是用。所以無入而不自得。無往而不得其道。以致寂然不動。感而遂通也。此皆是化勁神化之用也。然而所用之虛實奇正。亦不可專有意。用於奇正虛實。虛者。並非專用虛於彼。己手在彼手之上。用勁拉回。落如鈎竿。謂之實。已手在彼手之下。亦用勁拉回。彼之手挨不着我的手。謂之虛。並非專有意於虛實。是在彼之形式感觸耳。奇正之理亦然。奇無不正。正無不奇。奇中有正。正中有奇。奇正之變。如循環之無端。所用不窮也。拳經云。拳去不空回。空回總不奇。是此意也。
There are three stages of applying techniques in Xingyi Boxing:
[1] A technique has shape and image. [i.e. You know it is there and you can see it is there – corresponding to obvious energy (Ming Jin).]
[2] A technique has a name and an image, but leaves no trace. Or it makes a sound and has a name, but has no shape. [i.e. You know it is there but cannot sense it is there – corresponding to hidden energy (An Jin).]
[3] A technique has neither shape nor image, and is silent and undetectable. [i.e. You neither sense it is there nor even know it is there – corresponding to neutral energy (Hua Jin).]
It says in the Boxing Classics: “Lift like a steel file (lifting is when going out). Drop like a hooking pole (dropping is when withdrawing)… When it is not yet at the point of lifting, it is as though it is picking up. When it is not yet at the point of dropping, it is as though it is weighing down… Lift like an arrow and drop like the wind. Chase the wind and pursue the moon without letting up. Lift like the wind and drop like an arrow. Knock him down, bewaring of being slow… The feet are seventy percent of the attack, the hands thirty percent of the attack. The five elements and four limbs should merge and work as a whole. The energy connects with the mind and is used according to the moment. Firmly advancing attacks will go unimpeded… Fight opponents as if you are taking a stroll. Look upon them as if they are but weeds. Your courage rises like the wind whipping up. Lift and drop as if arrows are drilling in. If you advance and lose, it must be that you lost your nerve.” This is the first stage, the obvious energy [Ming Jin], in which a technique has shape and is visible.

When you reach the point of hidden energy [An Jin], technique increases in subtlety. “Lift like a crouching dragon climbing to the sky. Drop like a thunderbolt striking the ground. Lift without a shape. Drop without a trace… Send your intention out like wind rolling over the ground… If the lift did not lift, what would be the point of lifting again? If the drop did not drop, what would be the point of dropping again? Within going low, look toward going high. Within going high, look toward going low… Lifting and dropping are like water in overturning waves… There is neither overturning nor drilling unless preceded by a small step… The feet are seventy percent of the attack, the hands thirty percent of the attack. The five elements and four limbs should merge and work as a whole. The energy connects with the mind and is used according to the moment. Attacks that collapse his posture will go unimpeded.” This is the second stage, the hidden energy, in which a technique has no shape and leaves no trace.

“The boxing is without boxing. The intention is without intention. Within no intention is true intention… Attacking with your fists, be invisible in all three parts, like looking at something and not even being able to see even its shadow. [i.e. Whether your fist is extending, retracting, or twisting, it is all too quick to see.]” It will come out according to the situation. With each utterance and each silence, each action and each movement, and whether walking, standing, sitting, lying down, even into your eating and drinking, technique will always be there. Whether there is an opponent or not, at every point there will be technique, and thus “there is no situation in which you will not succeed”, for you will obtain the method regardless of the circumstances. Once you can be silent and still, then upon sensing anything, you will connect with it. All of this applies to the neutral energy [Hua Jin], in which technique has become neutrality of spirit.
Furthermore, techniques have emptiness and fullness, craftiness and straightforwardness, which must not be specific intentions. When applying craftiness and straightforwardness, emptiness and fullness, in the case of emptiness for instance, it is not really a matter of specifically applying emptiness upon the opponent. When your hand is above his and you put your energy into pulling back, “dropping like a hooking pole”, this is called fullness. When your hand is below his and again you put your energy into pulling back, so that as his hand closes in it does not get to touch your hand, this is called emptiness. There is no focus of intention on being either empty or full, it is a matter of how you are being affected by the opponent’s posture. This is also the case with the principle of craftiness and straightforwardness.
The crafty is not without the straightforward. The straightforward is not without the crafty. Within the crafty there is the straightforward. Within the straightforward there is the crafty. The alternating of the crafty and the straightforward seem to cycle without end, and so their applicability is limitless. It says in the Boxing Classics: “Once your fist has been sent out, it should not withdraw emptily, for if it is withdrawing emptily, it is never being crafty.” This is the idea. [To make this more explicit, the five elements techniques each extend a hand while the other hand withdraws. The extending hand is clearly attacking, and so it can be called “straightforward”. The simultaneous action of the withdrawing hand goes comparatively unnoticed as an offensive tactic, and so it can be called “crafty”.]

The 'Ming Jin' stage is the 風 'Feng' Wind.

In the 'An Jin' stage is where you get to 震 'Zhen' Shocking (symbolized by thunder), where the strike leaves no trace, or mark on the outside, but it 透勁 tòujìn​ (penetrates; passes through) and damages the inside. Going out/ Rising, or Lifting as Brennan translates, it looks meek, or without power, but it hits like a lightning bolt.

So first there is a strong, forceful Wind blowing against your house. Then you see lightning flashes, and hear the shocking sound of Thunder and it makes the windows shake. Then it starts raining and the water 'transforms' to any shape as it's flowing into gutters and downspouts, then when it reaches the ground it erodes or 'transforms' the earth and forms little ditches and turns into streams, rivers, then valleys. So 化勁 Hua Jin (Transforming Power) is like Water.


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[D_Glenn]

In the Xingyi classics, there is a famous description of the different levels of Neijia training. It is said there are three steps in the training
progression: Ming Jin, An Jin and Hua Jin.
The first step is Ming Jin _ visible force that means everything can be seen.
The second step is An Jin _ hidden force that means many things will be hidden inside.
The third step is Hua Jin _ dissolve force that means the skill should be dissolved in your body. In fact, this idea reflects the evolutionary
development of Chinese martial arts.

In Daito ryu there are three levels that match this. They are supposed to be the evolutionary
development within the art's adepts. I say "supposed to be"... because like so many martial artists-they are not martial nor are they artists of any kind. They actually pretty much suck and can't do anything meaningful beyond techniques. Worse, while being truly awful, akin to koratee at the mall they are convinced of their "deep knowledge" of information they apparently have no fecking idea of how to actually use. Sound familiar?
Anyway, its like this
1.Jujutsu-obvious levers and gross movement =Ming jin - visible force that means everything can be seen.
2.Aiki-jujutsu- The use of yin and yang cultivation of shen fa and use of it in a gross outer form to unite the mind and body= An Jin _ hidden force that means many things will be hidden inside.
3. Aiki-no jutsu (the art of aiki) Internal development, and use of yin yang in all movement. Absorb and redirect force = Hua Jin _ dissolve force that means the skill should be dissolved in your body.

Dan

These 3 stages are also supposed to represent the spans of years throughout one's lifetime but they build upon the things learned and developed in the previous stage. Most people don't want to put in the hard work and because they don't want to feel left out of things written down in the classics they instead just make up their own definitions of these 3 stages, and they've distorted them into just very basic stuff, like within the span of 2 hours the beginning student will pass through all 3 stages, and other nonsense.

There's a lot of Xingyiquan people in China who are perfectly happy just fighting with the 'Ming Jin' stage of skills and strategy and don't want to change-up their personal practice in order to learn the 2nd stage, so the 2nd and 3rd stage of practices are on the verge of being lost, but the stages of refinement for the body movements can occur no matter as they're more based upon doing something correctly for X amount of years will bring about a certain level of refinement. But while these stages require, and depend on that refinement of the body skills, they're not defined or limited to just that, as they have their own tactics and new things to be learned in regards to stepping, hand techniques, etc. that can make better use of those refinements.


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[D_Glenn]

Here's another good article on Ming, An, and Hua Jin stages: https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... den-power/


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[dspyrido]

I like to think of the three stages as things that can be expressed differently. I mention expressed (ie hit something) because explanations end up confusing more than helping.

Think you know an jing? Ok grab your nearest ming jing guy (make sure they are well conditioned fighters) & do the old punch the gut test to each other from 1 inch.

Can you hit in a relaxed way from a natural parallel standing position, at an inch or less distance, without windup & penetrate in such a way that the target looks like they are going to throw up?

Then you've got "shocking force". Give them a go doing the same strike to get a baseline. Can they do it?

[D_Glenn]

I like to think of the three stages as things that can be expressed differently. I mention expressed (ie hit something) because explanations end up confusing more than helping.

Think you know an jing? Ok grab your nearest ming jing guy (make sure they are well conditioned fighters) & do the old punch the gut test to each other from 1 inch.

Can you hit in a relaxed way from a natural parallel standing position, at an inch or less distance, without windup & penetrate in such a way that the target looks like they are going to throw up?

Then you've got "shocking force". Give them a go doing the same strike to get a baseline. Can they do it?

Xingyiquan is an Internal Martial Art from day one. You start doing Santishi and cultivating. The goal being to have a surplus of Zhen/ Yuan Qi, which results in a surplus of Ying and Weiqi (Defensive Qi) which is the qi that moves in the layers of the skin and can 'exit' to outside the skin, or 'enter' (ru) back into the deeper layers of the fascia and interact with the Ying Qi that runs in the fascia and the meridians.

The Ming Jin stage is working to build up a lot of Weiqi and emanate a threat, be vicious. The skin is like a layer of steel. The opponent is back-peddling away before the strike even lands.

In the An Jin stage, you don't want your Weiqi to be on the outside, so you keep the Laogong points on the palms of the hands covered and pulling in, etc. (see the article I linked above: https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... den-power/).

This is why I wrote that Baguazhang starts in the 'An Jin' stage, because from the start we practice with the thumbs covering Laogong points and keeping everything inside, so that when you want your Weiqi to 'exit' or 'disperse' (san) to the outside it will come as a shock (zhen) or surprise to the opponent.
We don't do relaxed standing but stand using tension for short amounts of time.

Zhen (Shocking) Strikes is a hard thing to learn as to practice it you are constantly 'dispersing' and depleting your energy, and due to it's unseen or unknown factor, (to not only your opponent but in the midst of a fight, you don't really know), so the tactics built around it are not dependent upon it working or having a great affect on the opponent, so it's still evasive stepping, turning, etc. like walking/ treading on ice.

For what ever reason, probably for safety, we don't practice shocking strikes against the partners stomach, but against a forearm, or better yet is to have them grab your wrist and then do your 'shock' strike with your arm and see how effectively you can affect his whole body from just his own grip. It's kind of like a 'no inch' test, as there already is contact.

But even though we (Baguazhang) are practicing in what could be called the 'An Jin' stage, 90% of our practice is still about generating power using larger mechanics of the body and the 'wind' force. Short power (cun Jin) and getting power into a shorter mechanical movement is still considered a 'wind' force as it's just a 'baopo fali' (explosive release of power).

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[D_Glenn]

Here's another great post:

Whether it's Xingyi, Bagua, or Taji, the common goal is to be able to combine yin and yang type of forces 剛柔相濟 (hard and soft mutually assisting each other) to achieve maximum effectiveness (can I get this result) and efficiency (how do I not overpay for this result).

To use a modern terminology, these three styles are three different training methodologies for reaching this goal.

In Taiji, we say being hard, or using too much force to deal with something, is natural, while being soft, using as little force as possible, is not. Here being hard (stronger, higher, faster) is easy to understand. Being soft is very difficult to understand, as it is a special type of softness. The type of softness we have naturally is not going to work, that's just being weak. So in Taiji Quan training, right from the beginning we emphasize being soft.

In Taiji Quan we say only after reaching the ultimate in softness, can we reach the ultimate in hardness. This is because softness is the far more difficult type of force to understand. For example it is more complex/difficult to be able borrow the force from an opponent's punch than to do that punch with maximum force. If we can understand that, which requires us to examine in far greater detail every aspect of force (amount, acceleration, timing, duration, range, etc), we will end up with a far more complete, detailed understanding of art of using force. Being hard(er) then is fairly simple, and straight forward (you still need to practice really diligently of course). Without the softness, without that detailed understanding, and the perfect integration that comes with that - perfect balance of yin and yang, not using any force in places where it's not needed, we're not generating the maximum amount of force we're truly capable of.

Xingyi, the oldest of the three modern Neijia Quan, uses the opposite approach. It's like the famous Confucius saying "the steel that's been through the forge a hundred times will become/transform (百煉鋼能化繞指柔, 化 hua as in hua jin) soft enough to wrapped around the finger. When we have to move a light object, we tend to isolate - using only local muscles. When we have to move a heavy object, we naturally try to integrate - use whole body, coordinated force.

Training is basically about building habits. Here the methodology is that, after doing millions of repetitions of basic/representative movements the body is capable of performing using whole body force, that becomes our habit. We will now acquire the feeling of what it is like to use whole body force, and balancing yin and yang, and acutely aware when we are not. That eventually, we use integration not matter how big or small the force requirement is.

More than that, in our quest for a complete force, we naturally have to blend yin with yang: Ming means light, visible; An means dark, not visible. Another way we would say this is ming is basically wai jin (you can understanding every attribute of a force being generated just by observing the physical movement used), and an jin is neijing (when external movement is so small, you can tell nothing by watching). Hua Jin then, is when you were finally able to combine the two - when the sword, combining hardness and sharpness with softness and flexibility, become a truly complete, perfect weapon, not one dimensional (sharp but brittle, or impact-absorbent but weak and dull).

Here 化 hua is also associated with the traditional concept of Tuo Hua (脫化). Tuo hua means transforming into something drastically different (ex. into a butterfly). Most of the time it's use to discuss art and spiritual practice, where it means transcending, becoming something of very different/much higher level than what you represented at the stage/level you started at. We use it in Neijia Quan because we say "the objective of external martial art training is to enhance natural abilities, the objective of internal martial art training is to change/transform our natural abilities". So the objective of Nejia Quan training is to (tuo) hua our jin.

Incremental change is already difficult enough, radical change, where we attempt to substitute the natural ability we're born with with entirely new one that is the complete opposite, is incredibly difficult. This is one of many reasons we say Taiji and Xingyi are high level martial arts. And as with becoming high level painter, musicians, etc, high level by definition means it's the most difficult, only a small percentage of practitioners can truly understand it and master it. We see this all the time right: in the case of Taiji, starting with softness practice, but failing to really understand or master that, most are just being weak. And since they haven't got to the hardness practice part, they can't do any fighting at all. Xingyi has the opposite problem, starting with hardness training first, most people do not progress beyond the min/wai jin stage, since they never get to the softness practice part, they are basically doing it like external martial art.

So in Chinese martial art we say with arts like xing yi, a sizable number of people can reach mid-level. But since it's doubly difficult to switch gears completely to study softness after so much training for hardness (always trying to be stronger, faster, higher), few people can progress to high level. Whereas in Taiji, only a very few can even get to mid-level, but once there (having already mastered softness), basically all of them can get to high level. In the end, in either art the overall percentage of reaching high level is that of "one hair for every (all the hairs on) nine bulls".

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[UniTaichi]

Hi D_Glenn,

I am too like to read post/writting by Wuyizidi. Like the above post, my understanding is quite similar to his on the 3 way/method of the 3 internal art. And also its effectiveness on actuall fight. It can be said the same apply to Internal and External.

I have only one minor different and that is what is natural and what is not. His version is ;

In Taiji, we say being hard, or using too much force to deal with something, is natural, while being soft, using as little force as possible, is not.

Using hard, muscular force to deal with something is ''acquired energy'' . While being soft, using as little force as possible is natural. Just look at how babys breath and how child up to about 6 use their 'natural' strenght.

So therefore ;

"the objective of external martial art training is to enhance natural abilities, the objective of internal martial art training is to change/transform our natural abilities".

should be IMOAU ; ''the objective of external martial art training is to enhance our acquired abilities, the objective of internal martial art training is to return/revert back/transform back to our natural abilities.''

There is another saying that compare those who can reach the highest level in IMA is liken the number of horn on a bull in percentage to its hair.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[D_Glenn]

Hi D_Glenn,

I am too like to read post/writting by Wuyizidi. Like the above post, my understanding is quite similar to his on the 3 way/method of the 3 internal art. And also its effectiveness on actuall fight. It can be said the same apply to Internal and External.

I have only one minor different and that is what is natural and what is not. His version is ;

In Taiji, we say being hard, or using too much force to deal with something, is natural, while being soft, using as little force as possible, is not.

Using hard, muscular force to deal with something is ''acquired energy'' . While being soft, using as little force as possible is natural. Just look at how babys breath and how child up to about 6 use their 'natural' strenght.

So therefore ;

"the objective of external martial art training is to enhance natural abilities, the objective of internal martial art training is to change/transform our natural abilities".

should be IMOAU ; ''the objective of external martial art training is to enhance our acquired abilities, the objective of internal martial art training is to return/revert back/transform back to our natural abilities.''

There is another saying that compare those who can reach the highest level in IMA is liken the number of horn on a bull in percentage to its hair.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

I agree with Wuyizidi, and that the internal bio-mechanics are radically different from any normal movement. Like what I'd posted in the other thread on 'Yi'. It's learning something new but making it natural. It's not going back to the natural movements of a child. See -- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21456

There's a ton of people who fight but don't learn martial arts. Natural born fighters who just use speed. Baguazhang has a martial system that just works to further develop this natural speed, it's called 'Chuan Zhang' (Threading Palms) and it tries to strike the opponent 3 times for every one step.

The Animal Systems in Baguazhang are the Internal Systems, and the first rule that goes along with the 'silk reeling' power is to have 1 strike with 1 step, the landing of the hand is timed with the landing of the foott. This takes a couple year of methodical training before it's fast enough to compete with a natural fighter. But it's a 'New natural way to fight', and in the midst of fight you could still use your old method, or the method of 'Chuan Zhang'. It's a whole new set of tools that can be added to your old tools.

And the saying is actually something like "The number of people who reach a high level of skill in the IMAs is like 1 hair for all the hairs on the bodies of Nine bulls".

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[Doc Stier]

Going back to my earlier comment about "simple truths hidden in plain view", most of the viewpoints expressed on this topic appear to focus on the external physical mechanics and body methods related to the subject matter, without adequately addressing the inner mental and psychological aspects of these arts. Unless the mind is properly transformed as well, all efforts to properly transform the body mechanics will fall short of the desired goal, imo. The reason for this is very simple.

If you subconsciously believe that real stopping power or 'hardness' in any technique can only be acquired through the obvious strength of overt muscular exertion, you will always revert to that body method under pressure in live combat, even though you have trained to develop 'softness' in your forms and drills.

Similarly, if you subconsciously believe that 'softness' essentially equals weakness, you will always doubt that truly relaxed, totally integrated whole body mechanics can create sufficient 'hardness' for real stopping power in serious fighting scenarios, and you will abandon trained 'softness' in your techniques under pressure, becoming both mentally and physically tense again, as this is still your original default mental state in reacting to potentially vulnerable or dangerous situations.

Thus, proper mental training and reprogramming at the subconscious level is of equal importance to proper physical training in IMA training regimens of any style. That said, I rarely see any mention made of effectively viable ways to achieve that goal. As a result, whether attempting to progress from hardness to softness or visa versa, the overall impact of the training remains essentially 'external', imo! Ever so close to the desired goal, perhaps even within view, yet at the end of the day missing the mark by light years.

[windwalker]

Going back to my earlier comment about "simple truths hidden in plain view", most of the viewpoints expressed on this topic appear to focus on the external physical mechanics and body methods related to the subject matter, without adequately addressing the inner mental and psychological aspects of these arts. Unless the mind is properly transformed as well, all efforts to properly transform the body mechanics will fall short of the desired goal, imo. The reason for this is very simple.

If you subconsciously believe that real stopping power or 'hardness' in any technique can only be acquired through the obvious strength of overt muscular exertion, you will always revert to that body method under pressure in live combat, even though you have trained to develop 'softness' in your forms and drills. Similarly, if you subconsciously believe that 'softness' essentially equals weakness, you will always doubt that truly relaxed, totally integrated whole body mechanics can create sufficient 'hardness' for real stopping power in serious fighting scenarios, and you will abandon trained 'softness' in your techniques under pressure, becoming both mentally and physically tense again, as this is still your original default mental state in reacting to potentially vulnerable or dangerous situations.

Thus, proper mental training and reprogramming at the subconscious level is of equal importance to proper physical training in IMA training regimens of any style. That said, I rarely see any mention made of effectively viable ways to achieve that goal. As a result, whether attempting to progress from hardness to softness or visa versa, the overall impact of the training remains essentially 'external', imo! Ever so close to the desired goal, perhaps even within view, yet at the end of the day missing the mark by light years.

exactly

[D_Glenn]

Using hard, muscular force to deal with something is ''acquired energy'' .

If you subconsciously believe that real stopping power or 'hardness' in any technique can only be acquired through the obvious strength of overt muscular exertion,...

+1

UniTaichi, But using strong muscular force, or muscle exertion, shouldn't even be on your mind in the first place.

The Ming Jin stage of training in Xin-Yi and Xingyi is actually the opposite of that, the limbs and whole body need to be kept extremely relaxed throughout the whole movement, any tension or exertion at all is wrong. The 'Obviousness' of it is that it's using a 'hard' tactic which is to immediately going on the offensive and try to run down the opponent; 'Lianhuan" (chain attacking), unrelenting attacks linked together as if they were links in a heavy chain.

The reason XYQ most people don't want to then go on to learn the An Jin (hidden power) Stage is because it requires 'tension' to be used, in order to keep everything inside and concealed. The fighting tactics are 'soft', meaning to focus on being defensive, rather than initiating attacks.

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[Doc Stier]

Ai-aah! Yau mo gau cho aah.