Bagua | Linear forms

[gerard]

Circle walking is xiantian (Fu Xi system), bringing the mind to the state before creation, linear forms are houtian (Wen Wang system), returning from unity to practical life. One without another is like yin without yang.
The purpose of linear forms is to understand and to apply xiantian knowledge (unity or taiji) in real life. Like a xiantian, houtian is also self-created and self-going or self-proceeding. Actual houtian forms in bagua are usually based on original MA system of particular practitioner or his teachers.

Miro

You are right Miro, thanks. I started practicing the form on my own to supplement my circle walking practice (yin) and it is clearly very practical (yang): grapple, punch, kick, forward move, grapple, punch, kick, forward move, etc...all starting with the old Buddhist monk holding a bowl palm. So, this line was created by Liu Dekuan who was a MA instructor in the army (I can see how some of those moves were designed for soldiers carrying a spear but some of them don't make any sense with that regard, for example the "sleeping dragon" or "white ape offering the peach" palms...so my guess is that the initial line was modified by Liu Dekuan himself once he started teaching it to non-military students, like Liang Zhenpu (whose form is the one I am learning and practicing), right?

[lazyboxer]

Here is something for you to think about. When my friend Dan Miller was in Cheng family village in the early 1990's, where descendents and relatives of Cheng Tinghua still practice very earthy, straightforward Bagua, he was told that originally Bagua was practiced as a series of straight line exercises and the circle walking was a very simple exercise practiced separately. Both Dan and I have heard this from several sources, and it is also consistant with what I have heard from some Yin style teachers. Putting the two practices together was a later development - some attribute it to the elder Cheng.

Thanks Ken, this is spot-on. I have heard exactly the same thing.

Circle walking also exists in other Hebei martial traditions, but only as one of many training methods and by no means the most important, as would also have been the case with Dong Haichuan's baguaquan. Its special skills come mostly from its advanced footwork, sometimes using only 3 steps to turn a full 360 degree circle, devised to deal rapidly with multiple attacks from all sides on the battlefield. The famous deer-horn knives were created for the same purpose, as were some other almost forgotten related bagua double knives I photographed last time I was in Hebei.

This is something very different from what is understood today as 'circle walking'. As you suggest, the emphasis on it as a primary training method does most likely come via Cheng Tinghua's shuaijiao background, which makes your information about the way it's practised in Cheng village particularly intriguing. I've been researching several rare bagua lines over the past few years and am now largely persuaded that whatever utility it may have once have had as a martial art had already almost completely disappeared with the fall of the Qing dynasty, certainly so at the public level.

[edededed]

Just curious - what rare lines of bagua have you been researching? Sounds interesting

For comparison purposes - in my line of Liang bagua, circle walking is considered by far the most important training method; however, linear drills are also taught early on, and are very important as well. The "old eight palms" should only be practiced after long practice of these two things, as it essentially combines them together for the first time.

Advanced practitioners may not do much of the linear drills anymore, in the same way that they may not practice the "old eight palms" much anymore, but that is from the view of advanced practitioners; however, they still practice the circle walking every day.

[johnwang]

classical teachers hide a lot. They do it because they fear that if they show the technique their job as a teacher is over ...

Holding information is 2 edges sword. Since you have kept your secret all your life. One day when you die, nobody will even notice that you had those secret. IMO, the more that you have shown, the more that people will come to you.

[lazyboxer]

Just curious - what rare lines of bagua have you been researching? Sounds interesting

Rural branches from Chengshi (Tinghua and Yougong) which have remained relatively unscathed and have an unbroken transmission with practical roots (i.e. were developed for use by biaoju agents etc.). One of them is also linked to Ma 'Coal' Weiqi 馬維棋

Fan Zhiyong/ bapanzhang peeps (BPZ was just about dead, though now being revived somewhat).

They're all up North, in and around villages far from the capital, though one or two of the old masters I've met have a few students in Handan.

[Bob]

Just a simple observation from practice found the other day. We were doing a linear form we call "bagua combination fist (also used for judge's pen) and I noticed in the application of one of the fist postures the body twisting and movement had a different "twist" to it - it was subtle but was kinda of a different way of generating power - then I realized that if I had not done the circle walking training that "dimensional twist" would not have been there.

That doesn't mean the application would not work if I had never done the circle walking but the shen fa would have been different (not judgment about power etc - just different). So the bagua circle walking added a flavor, a unique twist, to the linear form.

[Ian]

Just an observation: 

In this topic there isn't a single mention of opponents, even in the posts talking about 'combat'. 

All the reference points are about you - how you should step, how you should use circles and lines, how your syllabus is structured, how your lineage evolved. No mention of what you're trying to do to your opponent.

No wonder bagua is all but extinct.

-------------------------

"But Ian, this is a topic about forms!"

Assuming forms are training tools... can you imagine a forum of fighters talking at length about skipping rope or breakfalls or anaerobic conditioning, without a single mention of their application to fighting?

-------------------------

Steve Morris

People with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder or OCD are often overwhelmed by a constant obsessive fear or concern of some kind and this obsession produces feelings of great anxiety which often can only be alleviated when those suffering from OCD perform certain compulsive rituals repeatedly .The compulsive behaviour they engage in only brings about a temporary relief from their anxiety and their obsessions and anxieties soon return to lock them into a cycle of behaviour that is repeated over and over again.

[MaartenSFS]

My Shifu's main style is Cheng Shi Baguazhang. There are several masters around town. I have never seen him circle walk and asked him about it. He said that if you know how to ride a bicycle you don't need to practise. It wasn't the main point of the training. When sparring, I have found his Baguazhang footwork, palm strikes from different anglea, and Qinna a constant thorn in my side..

[johnwang]

In this topic there isn't a single mention of opponents, even in the posts talking about 'combat'.

This is the problem for RSF forum. Too much "solo" discussion and not enough "partner" discussion. Without mentioned "opponent", the timing, opportunity, and angle will have no reference point.

[shawnsegler]

The Houtien straight line forms in Gao style are taught as "forms" and simultaneously used as variables in different two person application drills.

It works just fine and isn't in any way shape or form "dead". Forms have their place if used correctly.

Assuming forms are training tools... can you imagine a forum of fighters talking at length about skipping rope or breakfalls or anaerobic conditioning, without a single mention of their application to fighting?

Forms of the sort being discussed (linear bagua ones) aren't anything like skipping rope, breakfalls or anaerobic conditioning so your analogy falls pretty flat.

The discussion was about the forms in general. Being as they cover an incredibly wide scope of techniques, when talking about the forms "in general" it would be inappropriate to talk about their "specific" combat usage. I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't get brought up.

It's fine to have a problem with Bagua and how it's done, but it's probably better for you to have some idea about what you're talking about before criticizing it.

Just sayin.

S

[D_Glenn]

Here is something for you to think about. When my friend Dan Miller was in Cheng family village in the early 1990's, where descendents and relatives of Cheng Tinghua still practice very earthy, straightforward Bagua, he was told that originally Bagua was practiced as a series of straight line exercises and the circle walking was a very simple exercise practiced separately. Both Dan and I have heard this from several sources, and it is also consistant with what I have heard from some Yin style teachers. Putting the two practices together was a later development - some attribute it to the elder Cheng.

Thanks Ken, this is spot-on. I have heard exactly the same thing.

Circle walking also exists in other Hebei martial traditions, but only as one of many training methods and by no means the most important, as would also have been the case with Dong Haichuan's baguaquan. Its special skills come mostly from its advanced footwork, sometimes using only 3 steps to turn a full 360 degree circle, devised to deal rapidly with multiple attacks from all sides on the battlefield. The famous deer-horn knives were created for the same purpose, as were some other almost forgotten related bagua double knives I photographed last time I was in Hebei.

This is something very different from what is understood today as 'circle walking'. As you suggest, the emphasis on it as a primary training method does most likely come via Cheng Tinghua's shuaijiao background, which makes your information about the way it's practised in Cheng village particularly intriguing. I've been researching several rare bagua lines over the past few years and am now largely persuaded that whatever utility it may have once have had as a martial art had already almost completely disappeared with the fall of the Qing dynasty, certainly so at the public level.

Blog post: http://bloguazhang.blogspot.com/2014/07 ... n-gen.html on the health and strength cultivation side.

.

[shawnsegler]

....and he's back.

[SteveBonzak]

Give it a rest, Shawn. If you don't like his posts, you can just ignore them.

-Steve

[shawnsegler]

Thanks for your advice Steve, but it's really none of your business what I do. I wasn't really giving him that much of a hard time, just ribbing him as I would anyone who makes a big deal of leaving and then two days later starts posting again.

Anyway, like I said it's none of your concern so thanks for feeling interested but I was also posting on this thread because I was posting on this thread.


Best,

S

[edededed]

Lazyboxer: Sounds like pretty cool stuff. I have seen just a few videos of Fan Zhiyong line, looks a bit "runny" like bapanzhang can; guess Fan style is mostly just in Beijing, like Liang style. Would be cool to hear more details about it - perhaps you will write a book or blog someday?

Anyway, I thought the discussion had moved to methods, not forms persay. The multitude drills of bagua I guess you could call "forms," although they are not really forms in the way we think of them.