Bagua | Linear forms

[gerard]

Does anyone know what is the main purpose and who created them?

Anything in Bagua that doesn't move in a circle, it has a lessened effect, IMO; if you want lines go Xingyi or plain equilibrium exercises.

[muttaqi]

I think people confuse why the circle exists in Baguazhang - thus the myriad of videos showing guys trying to circle around their opponent.

Even when doing movements on a circle - any singular application movement exists in a section of the circumference that could also be viewed as a straight line when looked at in isolation.

Likewise, the straight line that some Bagua sets are done on, can in reality be part of a much larger imperceivable circle.

[baguaboy]

Good teachers that know the linear syllabus should be able to change your mind if i cant with words!

Linear 'forms' are a bit like combos like jab, cross, hook. They are the techniques of fighting shown as simple 123, high low high, small big small etc...
There are plenty of circles in linear post heaven as there are in Xingyi and Tai Chi too, so my advice to you is not to get bogged down in the generalisations that are often used to define these arts.

Some straight line baguazhang you see online is just not clear, because classical teachers hide a lot. They do it because they fear that if they show the technique their job as a teacher is over and this is quite profound because lots of results have evolved from this.

Nick

[Lu da]

It's my understanding that it is a more functional form of Bagua. It's as if Bagua was distilled until all that is left are combat movements. Walking the circle helps change your body and movements so you are capable of changing steps very quickly, unfortunately it is a bit limited in its direct combat application. It's my understanding that Liu style was created with this purpose in mind.

In Liu style there are 8 lines and 64 palms with 3 movements in each palm. If you can imagine it takes about 5 minutes to go through all 196 movements compared to 5 minutes practicing the 8 mother palms you can see the advantages to it. It's not better or worse it's just something else.

[XiaoXiong]

I think of the 64 linear palms as the combat syllabus. It's a way to take a combat skill or a set of related skills and train them specifically. The 64 linear palms will be closer in form to the actual way they are applied than the circling palms, and will have specific footwork for those applications.

The op comment about circles and lines and Baguazhang and Xingyiquan is a common misconception. Xingyiquan uses lots of circles, Baguazhang uses lots of lines. In the Gao system of Baguazhang the circling forms are the main body of the syllabus and the 64 linear palms are representing the 8 circling palms combat applications. At first the linear looks more square and angular, but over time the two should become as one. It is important to note that the practice is designed to change over time, and change your mind and body in the process.

The presence and influence of Xingyiquan training methods in the Gao system is most likely the reason why we have the linear forms, and also one of the reasons for the great popularity and ability of fighters who practice Gao Shi Baguazhang.
Jess

[Miro]

Circle walking is xiantian (Fu Xi system), bringing the mind to the state before creation, linear forms are houtian (Wen Wang system), returning from unity to practical life. One without another is like yin without yang.
The purpose of linear forms is to understand and to apply xiantian knowledge (unity or taiji) in real life. Like a xiantian, houtian is also self-created and self-going or self-proceeding. Actual houtian forms in bagua are usually based on original MA system of particular practitioner or his teachers.

Miro

[yeniseri]

Linear single line practice is a way to "perfect' i.e. get down, the frame, depth and muscle memory associated with a specific palm/corresponding posture.
Nothing is lessened by doing straight line linear practice . They are not techniques, per se but they are no different from single or multiple posture practice for any system. You keep doing x specific drill for x period of time to learn it inside out!

[gerard]

Thanks for your replies. But if we compare Sun Zhijun's 64 Palms (Cheng style) with Gao Ji Wu's 64 (Yin Fu - Gao branch) the former is a lot less linear than the latter. How come? Wouldn't it be more effective using the good old Xinqyi technique. I am talking about effectiveness in here, not judging styles, forms or whatever...purely from the application point of view. Simplicity is always best.

[D_Glenn]

In the straight line forms you are mainly practicing 'Advancing/ Entering' Stepping.

In the forms done on the circle there is a mixed variety of 'Advancing' stepping, 'Forge' stepping, 'Back-Step' stepping, 'Withdrawing' Stepping, and 'Retreating' Stepping.

You can also practice the straight line forms doing only 'Retreating' Stepping.

.

[kenneth fish]

Here is something for you to think about. When my friend Dan Miller was in Cheng family village in the early 1990's, where descendents and relatives of Cheng Tinghua still practice very earthy, straightforward Bagua, he was told that originally Bagua was practiced as a series of straight line exercises and the circle walking was a very simple exercise practiced separately. Both Dan and I have heard this from several sources, and it is also consistant with what I have heard from some Yin style teachers. Putting the two practices together was a later development - some attribute it to the elder Cheng.

[wushutiger]

IN our syllabus (Liang style) we practice the 64 Hands (8 linear sets of 8 movements). These are called Liu Shi Si Shou (64 Hands), not Liu Shi Si Zhang (64 Palms), not to be confused. Ours came through Liu Dekuan, who was said to have compiled theses, and they were handed down through Liang Zhenpu, Guo Gumin and Li Ziming to my teacher. There are very practical, and in a tactical sense, like a set of 8 move chess.

[edededed]

Wushutiger: Are you doing the bagua these days, too? I like your teacher's bagua very much!

I have heard that some in Guo Gumin's line do the 64 hands on a circle, too (which, in retrospect is fairly simple to do).
Many weapons sets in bagua are also linear (like zhanshenqiang, qixinggan, etc.). But of course there are many circular ones, too...

[pjalexander]

when we study linear form, we focus our intent onto one line
when we walk the circle, that line curves.

[wushutiger]

edededed: Yes, doing some bagua too. My teacher taught me the 64 hands as a nice bridge between my xingyi and bagua. Not too sure about people doing the 64 hands in a circle from Guo Gumin's descendants though. I have seen Ma Chuanxu do the 64 hands, and its amazing to see all the motion coming from his core. Very refined. What struck me most about the 64 hands was how each preceding movement, should it be countered, sets up the following technique, putting the receiver in a worse and worse predicament until the end of the line, which is difficult to stop if it gets to that point. Very well thought out strategically.

[edededed]

Wushutiger: Yeah, I totally agree - they seem well thought-out! Also, since each of the 8 lines pertains to one of the old 8 palms, they may indeed be a good bridge from xingyi to bagua... although I guess that there isn't a whole lot of xingyi in them. (Ma Chuanxu has his running version of the 64 hands )