Bagua | Linear forms

[dspyrido]

Lol - just read D_Glenn's footer. See what you guys made him do? Looks like I might have to consult my lawyer before I post the following. Would not want to upset anyone especially the assholes who do seem to proliferate several boards & don't know how to implement squat. Same goes with those who have a great time poking holes into an ima board when they never really practised ima enough to save their lives.

Oh sorry - should I take that back?

Anyway glad D_Glenn is back & hopefully will stay.

Shawn - btw my post has nothing to do with your post so please don't take it the wrong way. What you guys have going is none of my business & for all I know you guys could be best friends who are doing this for self amusement.

Now back to linear bagua. I know very little but am interested in knowing more about the deviations to the classical (if that is the right term).

[Ian]

Forms of the sort being discussed (linear bagua ones) aren't anything like skipping rope, breakfalls or anaerobic conditioning so your analogy falls pretty flat.

The discussion was about the forms in general. Being as they cover an incredibly wide scope of techniques, when talking about the forms "in general" it would be inappropriate to talk about their "specific" combat usage. I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't get brought up.

It's fine to have a problem with Bagua and how it's done, but it's probably better for you to have some idea about what you're talking about before criticizing it.

Just sayin.

S

How can tying the practices back to the thing's intended purpose be misleading or detrimental to the discussion? You're right, I don't understand

Maybe this is why so many bagua practitioners can't fight.

[lazyboxer]

Lazyboxer: Sounds like pretty cool stuff. I have seen just a few videos of Fan Zhiyong line, looks a bit "runny" like bapanzhang can; guess Fan style is mostly just in Beijing, like Liang style. Would be cool to hear more details about it - perhaps you will write a book or blog someday?

edededed: Nearly all Fan's bagua on the tubes is a diluted later version which has incorporated a lot of Cheng elements, including sliding mud-step. This kind of stuff may win medals in competitions but is a far cry from what was transmitted. But that's sometimes the only way now in China to stop a line dying out completely, which is what almost happened to Fan Zhiyong's system. I have a clip of his grandstudent Wen Dasheng showing some proper old Fanshi methods which are totally different from this later stuff, in which the bapanzhang connection can be seen very clearly.

But all the original material is still intact and is being passed on to at least one person I know, including the jingangquan Fan Zhiyong learned in his youth. I haven't yet visited the area around Guan'xian where he lived in Liu Baozhen's home for the several years he was on the run, but plan to do so in due course. Blog and possibly book will happen eventually.

[shawnsegler]

Forms of the sort being discussed (linear bagua ones) aren't anything like skipping rope, breakfalls or anaerobic conditioning so your analogy falls pretty flat.

The discussion was about the forms in general. Being as they cover an incredibly wide scope of techniques, when talking about the forms "in general" it would be inappropriate to talk about their "specific" combat usage. I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't get brought up.

It's fine to have a problem with Bagua and how it's done, but it's probably better for you to have some idea about what you're talking about before criticizing it.

Just sayin.

S

How can tying the practices back to the thing's intended purpose be misleading or detrimental to the discussion? You're right, I don't understand

Maybe this is why so many bagua practitioners can't fight.

Ummm...because there's lots of different facets and that wasn't the one anyone was discussing. You know like the post above this is about history. It makes about as much sense to bitch about people talking about history not tying history into fighting as the other stuff does. If you want to be an inflammatory, complain-y bitch about how you're not getting what you want out of the discussion then you've succeeded, but it doesn't change that that wasn't the topic of discussion. You might have more luck by trying to tie it into the subject at hand rather than whining and being pissy.

My 2c.

S

[shawnsegler]

Lol - just read D_Glenn's footer. See what you guys made him do? Looks like I might have to consult my lawyer before I post the following. Would not want to upset anyone especially the assholes who do seem to proliferate several boards & don't know how to implement squat. Same goes with those who have a great time poking holes into an ima board when they never really practised ima enough to save their lives.

Oh sorry - should I take that back?

Anyway glad D_Glenn is back & hopefully will stay.

Shawn - btw my post has nothing to do with your post so please don't take it the wrong way. What you guys have going is none of my business & for all I know you guys could be best friends who are doing this for self amusement.

Now back to linear bagua. I know very little but am interested in knowing more about the deviations to the classical (if that is the right term).

The reason D Glenn put that up is that he didn't understand my complaints about him in the first place and because he has horrible social skills he had to assume that he should put up a rejoinder to all of his posts saying its "just his opinion" when he could have just acted like a human being and not written out his posts in a way that made out his lineage to be the end all-be all arbiter of truth in the bagua world.

As to your assumption that it was brought on by "Know nothing people who couldn't do IMA to save their lives", that seems to be a projection on the board that's unwarranted, so I'd take your statement with a grain of salt. Sure there's lots of people who post here who don't know their ass from their elbow but there's just as many who do know what they're talking about so making a sweeping generalization about that seems like well...a sweeping generalization.

Anyway...no skin off my nose.

Carry on.

S

[Ian]

Ummm...because there's lots of different facets and that wasn't the one anyone was discussing. You know like the post above this is about history. It makes about as much sense to bitch about people talking about history not tying history into fighting as the other stuff does. If you want to be an inflammatory, complain-y bitch about how you're not getting what you want out of the discussion then you've succeeded, but it doesn't change that that wasn't the topic of discussion. You might have more luck by trying to tie it into the subject at hand rather than whining and being pissy.

My 2c.

S

LOL

Bees in bonnets

[shawnsegler]

Yawn.

[edededed]

Lazyboxer: Sounds like pretty cool stuff. I have seen just a few videos of Fan Zhiyong line, looks a bit "runny" like bapanzhang can; guess Fan style is mostly just in Beijing, like Liang style. Would be cool to hear more details about it - perhaps you will write a book or blog someday?

edededed: Nearly all Fan's bagua on the tubes is a diluted later version which has incorporated a lot of Cheng elements, including sliding mud-step. This kind of stuff may win medals in competitions but is a far cry from what was transmitted. But that's sometimes the only way now in China to stop a line dying out completely, which is what almost happened to Fan Zhiyong's system. I have a clip of his grandstudent Wen Dasheng showing some proper old Fanshi methods which are totally different from this later stuff, in which the bapanzhang connection can be seen very clearly.

But all the original material is still intact and is being passed on to at least one person I know, including the jingangquan Fan Zhiyong learned in his youth. I haven't yet visited the area around Guan'xian where he lived in Liu Baozhen's home for the several years he was on the run, but plan to do so in due course. Blog and possibly book will happen eventually.

Interesting stuff... I read (on Jarek's site?) that Fan style adopted tangnibu via the influence of Guo Gumin - but I suppose that it would be difficult to avoid Cheng style influence in general, as that is the most visible and popular style (in media, competitions, etc.). But why did it become "runny" as well (which Cheng style is usually not)? In terms of other styles, it is also interesting to see that many students of the same teacher do have a totally different flavor for some reason! (In a way, Liu Jingru and Sun Zhijun are very good at teaching, as their students seem to move with a very strong likeness with their teachers.)

Looking forward to your book and possible blog

[Ian]

Does anyone know what is the main purpose [of bagua linear forms] and who created them?

The discussion was about forms in general... it would be inappropriate to talk about their "specific" combat usage.

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Steve Morris
http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/tag/muay%20thai

Take a professional blacksmith. He has learnt his trade by performing his specialized work day in and day out for many years. He hasn't spent his life talking about what he is going to do with the hammer if he ever happens to meet a horse. He's been doing it for real, making mistakes and correcting as he goes. You can't bullshit your way around putting a shoe on a horse.

You can probably guess where I'm going with this one. In the martial arts there's a lot of talk about tools and arsenals and toolboxes. But when I look at the performance of the men who are doing the talking, I can't see any of the expertise that the tradesman displays in the clip above. Regardless of what they may have to say about tools and biomechanics, most martial arts instructors use the tools of their body like a rank amateur. It shows-- to me, anyway. 

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I think we should talk more about using martial arts for fighting, not less.

[shawnsegler]

Ian I never said that's a bad idea in general. I said that trying to impose it...no not even impose it because that would be just moving the discussion, which would be fine...but rather bitching about it when that's not what's being discussed is just that BITCHING about it...you know, like a BITCH.

Anyhow, we all know how you think we should talk now. In the future why not just try and direct the flow of conversation by bringing up what you want to talk about rather than BITCHING..you know, like a BITCH.. about what other people are talking about.

Best,

S

[Ian]

I know you wouldn't say that to me in real life, so I feel kind of bad for you that that's how you choose to express yourself.

Anyway, no harm done. Be well

[shawnsegler]

You don't have any idea what I'd do or say IRL. Don't feel bad for me I was just expressing myself as I should considering how you were acting.

Be well yourself.

S

[Wuyizidi]

Does anyone know what is the main purpose and who created them?

Anything in Bagua that doesn't move in a circle, it has a lessened effect, IMO; if you want lines go Xingyi or plain equilibrium exercises.

It's created by Liu Dekuan. From http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Techniques-Taiji-Xingyi-Bagua/dp/1583941452:

Liu Dekuan, also known as Jingyuan, was born in Cang-Zhou County of Hebei Province. When he was young, he studied Shaolin Liuhe Quan with Tian Chunkui and then the Yue style link form Yue-Shi Lian-Quan and Ying-Zhua Quan or Eagle Claw with Liu Shizun. Liu Shizun, whose nickname was Xiong-Xian Liu or “Xiong County Liu,” was a martial arts instructor for the Emperor's security guard team.

His superior spear technique earned him the nickname Da-Qiang Liu or “Big Spear Liu.” When he worked as a security guard for the famous Changxin Security Company in Mao County, people there nicknamed him Mao-Zhou Liu to honor his excellent work.

Liu had already achieved renown by the time he arrived in Beijing. Once there, he challenged Dong Haichuan and having lost, so he decided to study Bagua Zhang with Dong. He practiced hard and was able to understand deeply the essence of Bagua Zhang. Through his studies of Bagua, Liu realized that if students paid attention to developing internal components when they walked the circle, they tended to overlook the development of fighting skills, and vice versa. Only gifted students could do both well.

To circumvent this problem, Liu devised a new form that included sixty-four fighting skills practiced in a straight line, similar to Yue-Shi Lian-Quan. Each skill was derived from traditional Bagua, but none was practiced by walking the circle. Liu suggested that students of Bagua first practice basic skills to develop internal components by walking the circle and then practice fighting skills using his straight-line form. This separation in training made it easier for students to understand and master the Bagua Zhang principle and Bagua skills. Liu’s form was called Liu style Bagua or Straight Bagua. The majority of Bagua masters accepted Liu’s concept and today, most Bagua groups use his straight style but practice it in conjunction with a circle style. Liu’s form is only included fighting skills, so it is not a complete training system of Bagua and it is included in many groups of different styles. Because of this, Liu style Bagua is sometimes not considered an independent style in its own right.

[WongYing]

Liu De Kuan, had spent a long period of study in Beijing with Liu Shi Jun of BaoDeen area learning the Eagle Claw system or Yue Shi San Shou/Lian Quan (Ying Jow Faan Tzi Mun). It was this that influenced his reasoning to create the Linear 64 Palms sequence/routine

[edededed]

Guo Gumin (who learned many things from Liu) said that he created the 64 hands to teach a (cold weapons) army baguazhang (since having them all walk around circles was problematic). Each of the 8 lines is associated with one of the old 8 palms, which makes the set quite interesting for me...

Other things that may have been transmitted by Liu Dekuan include bagua spear (which he learned from Dong), the six lines of halberd (fangtianhuaji), and perhaps some qinna methods (liubazongna?). Of the spear routines, some may have been imported from previous styles that he learned from, but it's a bit unclear (one Chinese site noted bamianzhanshenqiang, a popular linear bagua spear routine).