Tendons versus Muscles

[MaartenSFS]

Maarten:

Ask him how to train tendons without training muscles. Seriously, I am curious: I don't know of a way to do this. I also suggest you look at (or ask to touch) your teacher's thighs: My guess is they will be heavily muscled.

There are many, many strength training routines. Bodybuilding (which I think your teacher is talking about, and which builds localized muscle mass for alleged aesthetic affect rather than for strength or health per se) is just one.
Bodyweight exercises - push ups, pulls ups, chins, etc - are excellent full body strengthening and coordination exercises. Lot's of ways to do them: Slow, fast, eccentric, plyometric...
Power lifting is the perfect full-body exercise for dynamically shifting weight from A to B, which is why so many judoka, rasslers, etc, do it
Kettle bells are another excellent full-body strengthening, agility and coordination regime
And so on.

I do Taiji and I love it, but I also run, stretch, lift weights, do bodyweight work, etc. Taiji is very good for some things, but it is not the perfect exercise - nothing is. Which is why I think everybody should have an all round regimen that trains stamina, power, agility, flexibility, positive postural mechanics, etc, rather than focusing on any one of these components.

You're right. He was talking about localised muscle building. He said that if I really wanted to continue I would have to do them "the Taiji way", but that at this point in my training he advocated against them. My teacher's thighs are indeed bigger than his arms and more muscular, but this is naturally the case in all humans.

Also, it's a focus on tendons, not only tendons. Of course it's impossible to train only one or the other. If people would get past that point this thread may yet produce some interesting dialogue...

I still think that at least Chen Shi Taijiquan has everything you could ever need to prepare you for combat except for training against other "styles". It all depends on your teacher's curriculum. My teacher wants me to begin doing 100 relaxed frog hops per day once my foot completely recovers, for example. That being said, doing things like mountain biking, kayaking or trekking can vary things up and still help in a general sense. No one wants to train the art every single day.

[MaartenSFS]

If your teacher has something that you want to achieve and you think he has your best interest at heart, simply listen to him for a while. Put in the work and, after a year, if you think you are gaining that skill, keep going. If not, Be truthful with yourself... are you really working hard enough to gain the skill? If the answer is yes, but nothing is changing, find a new teacher. That whole thing about emptying your cup comes to mind here. If you do anything half way because you still think you know better, then you'll achieve nothing. Even when your teacher has the skills, he either may not know how to transmit them, or not want to. Teachers are human after all, but there has to be some kind of faith in your teacher the same way that he has to have faith in you.


edit** As a side note, if your muscles are shortened and tightened creating disfunction, there is less blood flow and less oxygen getting to the area. Often times the way we work out in the gym simply reinforces bad posture, and creates issues for the future. What a lot of these arts do is effect the structural muscles and allow you to fight back against a lifetime of bad posture from emotion, laziness, etc.. you're not going to get that if your constantly tightening your body while trying to loosen it. There's more going on than just this, but for me this alone is reason enough.

All good points. I have already noticed changes in less than a month of learning from him. Can't wait for this fucking holiday to be over!

[MaartenSFS]

shifted from muscle strength training to "tendon" strength training

Again that is a false dichotomy. How can you train the tendons without training the muscles?

I have no reason to doubt him.

Why not? I think being critical of everything is a good point of view, especially since there is a lot of good factual knowledge out there on training.

+1 Patrick.

Yes the funny thing is I realized or my ignorant opinion is lots of these 'masters' can do some cool stuff as they get older but it's always more like they have been better at preserving their fairly ordinary levels of strength than actually building something. It's a very narrow box of skills spending decades to get some very unremarkable levels of strength and fighting skills. Good luck everyone give up your physical training and build your chi bellies..... It's tradition.

I thought I was pretty clear that we were going at it pretty full on. This isn't some silly gimmick. There is no "narrow box of skills", just an all-round fighting curriculum that also keeps one in good health. What's not to love?

[MaartenSFS]

shifted from muscle strength training to "tendon" strength training

Again that is a false dichotomy. How can you train the tendons without training the muscles?

I have no reason to doubt him.

Why not? I think being critical of everything is a good point of view, especially since there is a lot of good factual knowledge out there on training.

I came to him with an open mind and many questions. He answered all of my questions to the point where there was zero doubt in my mind that this is what I wanted to learn. Why should I then continue to doubt him? Doubt and questions are not the same. With your attitude he would have never agreed to teach me. I emptied my cup, but still keep the bulk of my knowledge in the reservoir, if not to use it when I need it, then to compare it with new things I learn to make sure I don't stray from the right path.

[MaartenSFS]

Unless of course we are entering in ling kong jing land....at that point unleash your concerns on the op.

We are not. There are some places that even my fairly open mind would clam shut and scream "lalalalala!"

[MaartenSFS]

Im sure what your teacher does works, as does mine... but explanations of how and why should be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

Or, more likely, it is my explanations that are at fault..

[pjalexander]

my shifu, he jing han, has taught me this over the last 10 years. i have had great results.
i like the idea that instead of the muscles leading the tendons, the tendons are trained to lead the muscles.

[Patrick]

Also, it's a focus on tendons, not only tendons. Of course it's impossible to train only one or the other. If people would get past that point this thread may yet produce some interesting dialogue.

Ok, then lets go beyond this. How to do it? Then we can see, if its a valid point. I may have an idea what he tries do to, but a clearer language would be a good idea, if this conversation should go somewhere.
I bet he is in actuallity very much focused on his muscles. He wants to train lower intensity but for a longer duration focused on relaxation which in turn targets mainly type I muscles (fine motor skills), instead of explosive strength work which targets mainly type II (gross motor skills). IMHO every IMA based art trains like this.

[MaartenSFS]

I'll get back to you on that.

[ksloka]

Training tendons

As suggested by Wilson et al. [1], an increase in the stiffness of the muscle-tendon complex should result in a higher force and rate of force development. A stiffer muscle-tendon complex would also transmit force to the bone more rapidly, and thus a higher rate of force development would be expected.

A study demonstrates that a greater increment of stiffness of human tendon structures following isometric training using long-duration compared to short-duration contractions. [2]

The training protocol: The Short Contraction protocol consisted of three sets of 50 shorter contractions with a 2 s rest between each and a 1 min rest between each set. These shorter contractions involved rapid contraction followed by relaxation. The Long Contraction potocol consisted of four contractions of 20 s duration with a 1 min rest between each. [3]

As far as the present results (in the study) are concerned, we may conclude that the increase in the stiffness of tendon structures, which means an increase in the ability to transmit muscle force more effective, plays an important role in shortening the electromechanical delay. In any case, the shortened electromechanical delay as well as the increased stiffness after training will be considered to be suitable changes for improving muscle performances during various rapid movements. [2]

Other results suggested that the resistance training increased the stiffness of tendon structures as well as muscle strength and size, and the stretching training affected the viscosity of tendon structures but not the elasticity. [4]

References
1. J Physiol. Jan 1, 2002; 538(Pt 1): 219–226.
doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2001.012703
2. 10.1111/j.1469-7793.2001.0649c.xd October 15, 2001 The Journal of Physiology, 536, 649-655.
3. Journal of Applied Physiology July 1, 2001 vol. 91 no. 1 26-32
4. Journal of Applied Physiology June 1, 1994 vol. 76 no. 6 2714-2719

[WVMark]

You're right. He was talking about localised muscle building. He said that if I really wanted to continue I would have to do them "the Taiji way", but that at this point in my training he advocated against them. My teacher's thighs are indeed bigger than his arms and more muscular, but this is naturally the case in all humans.

Also, it's a focus on tendons, not only tendons. Of course it's impossible to train only one or the other. If people would get past that point this thread may yet produce some interesting dialogue...

I still think that at least Chen Shi Taijiquan has everything you could ever need to prepare you for combat except for training against other "styles". It all depends on your teacher's curriculum. My teacher wants me to begin doing 100 relaxed frog hops per day once my foot completely recovers, for example. That being said, doing things like mountain biking, kayaking or trekking can vary things up and still help in a general sense. No one wants to train the art every single day.

IMO, your teacher sounds right. Training localized muscle building is detrimental to good Taiji. Don't listen to the people who advocate for going ahead and doing weight training because they can't fathom how that's different than "tendon" training. If you're trying to make changes to your body in an effort to be much better at Taiji than everyone else out there, stop the weight lifting.

Think about it. If you're trying to have relaxed, whole body power from an integrated physical body with no slack, why would you train isolated muscle groups? That's exactly the opposite. Bicep curls flex and build muscle from weight pressure to rebuild localized muscle. When you do that, you're training to have your biceps automatically flex whenever there's pressure against the arm. Once that happens, you disrupt any kind of relaxed, whole body, integrated power. Same with leg presses, bench presses, etc.

Once you've started rebuilding/rewiring your body and you try that kind of weight training again, you'll do them differently.

IMO anyway,
Mark

[Dajenarit]

Damn, and here I am thinking the forum collectively settled this like 2 months ago.

lol ...hell do I know.

[MaartenSFS]

Thanks, Mark. It was a lot to digest at first but I've thrown in all of my chips , so to speak.

[David Boxen]

Once you've started rebuilding/rewiring your body and you try that kind of weight training again, you'll do them differently.

Care to elaborate on what you think this difference would be? I'd be truly interested to see the difference between a 400lbs squat performed by someone who has rebuilt/rewired their body in this way you speak of, and a 400lbs squat by someone who has not.

[johnwang]

Does this make sense?

Muscles training - more weight, less repetition.
Tendons training - less weight, more repetition.