Anti-striking

[chimerical tortoise]

Would it make more sense to NOT interlace the fingers? Just keep the fists closed with the thumbs on top and press your fingers together. The big fist with fingers interlaced seems vulnerable. The first thing I would want to do is grab the fist and squeeze my opponents fingers together.

Just pressing the fists together would keep that from happening and make it much quicker to separate when you want to grab.

Just a thought.

The interlock fingers is only the beginner level training. The fingers locking is not necessary.

Interlocking fingers is downright dangerous. IMO, it should not be taught even in begginer level. You would never let your students cross their legs in front of opponents as "beginner level training". It's not just, as Raleria suggests, because interlocking fingers makes you slower to separate hands to grab. It's also that if somone grabs your two locked hands when the fingers are locked, they can easily contol your two hands with their one hand. If they use two hands to grab your hands and squeeze, you feel like your fingers will all be broken.

This is just basic rule of thumb for ground game: NEVER EVER interlock your fingers.

Erm.

Be that as it may I don't think JW is suggesting anybody use the big fist, ''out of the box as-is''... there is a lot of beginner work that has its time and place (i.e. single sticky hand, prior to both) in communicating principles. As previously mentioned, we have a very similar drill in VT that helps the beginner understand the basic principles of the system. I have never seen a VT ''big fist'' attack before.*


*and of course, I'm sure that once I've said this, Youtube will provide...

[bailewen]

Point is...it's a bad habit. You should never let it even get a chance to be engrained in your body. The drill losing nothing by simply changing it so that the hands are held in a safer way. It's a grappling mistake that many people do instinctiuvely in the heat of the moment. The way you clasp your hands together should be an instinct that is not context specific.

Putting it another way:

1. There is a "cost" to training in any way at all with the fingers interlaced.
2. Is there any benifit accrued in this drill to interlaced fingers that could possibly defray that cost?

[chimerical tortoise]

Sure,

1. The "cost" is not permanent. If you start riding with training wheels ultimately your goal is to ride a normal bike, and once you get there do you keep your training wheels to train on every once in awhile?

2. Yes. If we keep by "big fist" then one set of fingers over the other (i.e. something like a regular salute with fist/palm) is the other option and that just doesn't feel quite as equally distributed to me as lacing the fingers. If we aren't trying to bash each others' head in then it can be used to up someone's confidence in maintaining proper structure. You're going to train other things than putting your two hands together like in this drill all the time as some motor coordination reflex.

The only time I really see people lace fingers is in bad clinches. Once again I really don't see people lacing up the fingers and big fisting you one in the face, or to grab you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[neijia_boxer]

Bravo. nice video progression john. we call that "triangle defense" in western boxing. Pacquiao uses it alot. very much like the wedge.

[bailewen]

The only time I really see people lace fingers is in bad clinches. . .

"bad clinches"

Exactly. Nobody does it on purpose.

...Once again I really don't see people lacing up the fingers and big fisting you one in the face, or to grab you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't either. But I see it occasoinally in those "bad clinches" you references. You also see it in begginign grappling. People tend to do that in side control, for example. It's just a simple thing that needs to be "un-instinctualized" like people who tend to close their eyes (blink) when trying to hit hard. (I used to do that back in the day) or like dropping your right when you jab. That's just a bad habit and should be corrected whenever it shows up.

I'll take your point about a possible benifit. I still feel it's a tiny benefit being weight against a pretty big cost but that's just my opinion I guess.

I like the drill overall and see what middleway is saying. When I did Thai Boxing we had some punching drills where you had to bring your elbows together to block the standard 1-2 punch combo. Big fat gloves on so no "grabbing hands". Just bring your gloves together and there's still and opening between your arms. Force the student to touch both elbows together and the hands/gloves will naturally be together and the forearms make a shield.

IMHO, good drill. Just change the fingers.

[jaime_g]

Did you try this ? Old boxing stuff

[johnwang]

Thanks for those valuable opinions.

Did you try this ? Old boxing stuff

Nice picture. That's very similar indeed.

Next week I am going to record some "double spears" strategy. The

- "big fist" strategy is to protect your center from inside out. You don't let your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is outside of your center.
- "double spears" strategy is to protect your center from outside in. You invite your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is in your center.

With both strategies, I think the anti-striking theory can be more convincing.

[chimerical tortoise]

The only time I really see people lace fingers is in bad clinches. . .

"bad clinches"

Exactly. Nobody does it on purpose.

...Once again I really don't see people lacing up the fingers and big fisting you one in the face, or to grab you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't either. But I see it occasoinally in those "bad clinches" you references. You also see it in begginign grappling. People tend to do that in side control, for example. It's just a simple thing that needs to be "un-instinctualized" like people who tend to close their eyes (blink) when trying to hit hard. (I used to do that back in the day) or like dropping your right when you jab. That's just a bad habit and should be corrected whenever it shows up.

I'll take your point about a possible benifit. I still feel it's a tiny benefit being weight against a pretty big cost but that's just my opinion I guess.

I like the drill overall and see what middleway is saying. When I did Thai Boxing we had some punching drills where you had to bring your elbows together to block the standard 1-2 punch combo. Big fat gloves on so no "grabbing hands". Just bring your gloves together and there's still and opening between your arms. Force the student to touch both elbows together and the hands/gloves will naturally be together and the forearms make a shield.

IMHO, good drill. Just change the fingers.

The "bad clinch" is definitely taught. I feel almost that it's surprisingly difficult to find somebody who can MT clinch properly (i.e. using elbows and palms to lever the person's spine as opposed to ''hanging'' off of his neck). All the usual caveats of course - I don't train MT, or for an MMA format, so I'm guessing someone more experienced might have a different opinion.

Hmmm did not see middleway comment.. what am I missing?

[Ralteria]

IMHO, good drill. Just change the fingers.

Agree. Kinda reminded me of Xing Yi Horse shape used defensively.

[bailewen]

Hmmm did not see middleway comment.. what am I missing?

My bad. I mean, neijia-boxer.

The boxing comment, Paquaio..triangle defense.

[chimerical tortoise]

Gotcha

[johnwang]

Interlocking fingers is downright dangerous.

I find this one - 武松脱铐拳. The "big fist" idea was used in some system already in case you have to fight with handcuffs on.

[jaime_g]

Pablo Popovitch uses interlocked fingers sometimes in grappling. Almost everything has a place if you know when and how use it

[bailewen]

Interlocking fingers is downright dangerous.

I find this one - 武松脱铐拳. The "big fist" idea was used in some system already in case you have to fight with handcuffs on.

This comment makes me think you do not quite understand what I am talking about. I have absolutely no issue at all with the two hands being held together like that. I'm talking specifically about the grip between the two hands.

I can't believe I can't find a pic on google to show what I mean. I'm even more suprised I can't find a video on youtube to show why it's dangerous.

jaime,

Love to see some sort of example. In principle, I agree with what you're saying. In practice, I can't for the life of me thing of a single example.

[jaime_g]

jaime,

Love to see some sort of example. In principle, I agree with what you're saying. In practice, I can't for the life of me thing of a single example.

You can see the idea in his NoGI exposed- Guard Passing dvd series