Some deceitful marketing trends I've seen recently

[jonathan.bluestein]

With that article about 'fakeness' in China, I was reminded of these, which are becoming rampant:

Southern style calls their slow form "Tai Chi" to lure the hippies and spiritualists
(Intentionally not naming the martial art)

Everyone adopting Zhan Zhuang, with no knowledge of it whatsoever, and calling it 'Qi Gong'

'Special Qi Gong made only for the female body'
(Saw three of these already, different 'schools')

'Self-defense for women only'
(as if it's possible to learn to defend against male aggressors whilst only working with females)

'Sign up to our Aikido class and get a free sword'
(10$ wooden bokken they'll only use after years, and will never use realistically)

'Sign up for our MMA classes'
(pretty much any Krav Maga / Israeli invented style these days)


Of all the above, the 'female empowerment' bullshit gets to me most.

[Franklin]

why does the female empowerment get to you the most

first let me state i have no knowledge of the advertising or the school you are talking about

but women's self defense is an actual need that can be filled by martial arts if done correctly
and many women would feel more comfortable in an all female environment
it prevents pervs from using the class to try to hook up or cop a feel
and with all females in the class the instructor can discuss things that people would not be comfortable talking about in a mixed gender setting

as for not being able to learn self defense against a male aggressor with out having a male aggressor
seriously people can learn some good stuff that can help save them
without having to get out one of those body armor suits

[jonathan.bluestein]

I'm all in for female empowerment and equality. But the concept has become a marketing trend, used quite cynically. Instead of actually empowering women, various business segregate them, supposedly 'giving them a better chance to excel at something'. I gather that this is not the right approach.

Some may remember:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._ ... _Education

"(the doctrine of) Separate but Equal is not Equal". Meaning that providing equal terms and opportunities whilst containing them in separate groups is not truly a pursuit of equality throughout the whole of society. This might have been said with regard to African-American inequality, but holds the same for women's rights in my opinion.

Yet this goes beyond the mere principle of equality. I look at it from a practical perspective. In our society, women are taught to fear men, and especially male strangers. Then come these groups who tell women that they can learn to deal with a men-dominated society and "the threats posed by men", through practicing in women-only groups. I find that unrealistic and misleading. It is akin to learning the form and not physically practicing the techniques with resistance. Some people can learn useful things in that way, to an extent. Most cannot.

It is true that many women find it uncomfortable to train with men. But this is down to the teacher to solve. Wherein a female student has such a problem, physical contact can be initiated very gradually over the course of several weeks, and be very gentle in the beginning. The Gracies have a lot of females following them, and their physical training is as intimate as one can get. It's all about the teacher's attitude. If the teacher is not making a big deal out of people touching each other when necessary, then the students are far less likely to react badly to it. Talking too much about it makes it into an issue. I have 4 female students. All of them had their prejudices about physical contact, and all have almost lost these completely within a few months. Just took a lot of patience. Putting them in women-only groups would have never solved the problem.

Thing is though, and that's why it gets to me most, is that the schools offering 'female-only' classes where I come from, advertise it as if there were martial arts especially suited for women. This creates a facade among the public, that there indeed exists such a thing, and then this brings up the risk that in the future, much of the martial arts 'market' would feature segregated classes. It is a process that has been growing in my country for some 10 years now.

Men have something to lose as well. There is a lot to learn about softness and gentleness of movement from fellow female students - qualities which are rarely found among male students, especially in the more combative schools. With most females being weaker than their male counterparts, they have to adhere more to technique over brute strength, and thus make excellent models for other students who are overly keen to use their natural advantages. This especially stands out in thins like Tui Shou.

Finally, and this is particular to my country - in Israel there is an issue with the religious extremists on all sides trying to promote a society in which all institutions and places (schools, buses, weddings, streets and whatnot) segregate between men and women. This extreme agenda goes hand in hand with separation of male and female groups in martial arts. This is the reality I live in. For example - I have a lot of Ultra-Orthodox Jews asking me questions at the park where I teach and train - at least 2-3 people a day. Many of them have asked me to be their teacher (happens about once a month). But they have a 'special requirement' - there can't be women in the class, because they are not allowed to touch women, speak to women, or even watch women train. I always politely explain to them that I will only teach classes open for both sexes, and they immediately give up on the idea.

[allen2saint]

No offense man, but if there's one person we can count on for a steady stream of a variety of criticisms of other martial artists, it's you.

[Zonker]

I don't see a problem with women only martial arts classes, if that's what a woman is looking for or, needs in order to start training. Nothing wrong with that option being available. Here in NYC, many women become involved in martial arts only after some kind of negative or traumatic incident happening to them. If those women will feel more comfortable and secure training with an all-female group, OK. Have you ever witnessed a female student meltdown on the mat due to some traumatic experience(s) flashing-back because her male training partner is merely setting up the kata/form attack? I have, it ain't pretty and most martial arts instructors aren't trained to deal with that kind of situation. There used to be a karate dojo in lower Manhattan that was women only and those were some pretty tough chicks, as I recall. That said, every martial arts school, dojo, dojang, etc. I've visited/trained at in NYC has had female students who wanted to "rock 'n' roll" from day one, no gender segregation necessary. If you believe that women are getting shit training in an all-female school, maybe your female students can be a positive example for them?

BTW, while I get what you're trying to say by using the Brown v. Bd. of Ed. cases as an example, it's not appropriate in this context. If the gov't of Israel segregates martial arts classes based upon gender, then you've got a good example to cite to.

[Lu da]

'Woman's self defense.'

I'm not exactly sure why you have an issue with this class but I think it's about time you get over it.

Many women lack confidence in themselves in general.

Most women have no confidence in their ability to defend themselves from an attacker.

Women are the most likely targets for sexual assaults.

There is a need to provide basic defensive techniques to women so they can escape an assault.

So what we can conclude is that there is a demand for self defense classes for women. Most women have no interest in dedicating a significant portion of their lives to martial arts training solely for the purpose of fighting off an attacker in the parking lot on the way to her car. If there was some class that could provide a few easy to learn tools that will increase a woman's odds of survival in an encounter and empower her with confidence in that ability, that class would be a useful public service.

Perhaps it's the name you disagree with because I am sure you are reasonable man and you don't dispute the need for the class? Why not 'self defense?' Because self defense is synonymous with martial arts and many women are only interested in learning a few basic tools. Once you get them in the door you can explain the difference, but when you are trying to get people's attention, 'womens self defense' works great.

If I hold up my sign saying mechanically separated animal remnants preserved with sugar and nitrates, wrapped in an dough blanket of over processed bleached wheat, and covered with a sugar vinegar tomato paste you would have walked away a long time ago. If I say hot dogs you might be interested. We know what it is but the way the idea is presented determines the interest of the audience.

Enjoy your time bombarded by ultraviolet radiation, that causes DNA transcription errors in the epidermis and eventually leads to to the cessation of heart and brain function, emanating from the large self sustaining nuclear reactor that will eventually expand and eliminate all life on the spinning ball of crust molten rock known as earth. In other words, enjoy the sun.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Lu Da - yes, it's the name I have a problem with, but also the forcing of the group to be 'female only'. I have explained my issues with the concept on my second message. In any case, I do not have a problem with the concept of short-term self-defense classes or courses, as opposed to long-term study. I find them far less effective, but like you I believe that's way better than knowing nothing. Also, if all you teach a person is 5 simple tricks, sometimes this is way easier to apply in real life than learning a 'system', which is why I think we hear of so many successful stories of women using such tricks on the street. I recall that many years ago, I learned 4 simple falling methods from my Karate teacher. Within 5 classes these became second-nature, and I still fall properly every time I need to, though I spend maybe 30 minutes a year total practicing these falls. I think that is because I was only ever taught 4 ways to fall, the technique were very simple, and there wasn't a 'system' or a complicated ruleset to it.

Have you ever witnessed a female student meltdown on the mat due to some traumatic experience(s) flashing-back because her male training partner is merely setting up the kata/form attack? I have, it ain't pretty and most martial arts instructors aren't trained to deal with that kind of situation.

I have, actually. I concur. But this was dealt with in the class, and they went back to training after a period of rest and soft, loving encouragement. I don't see how an all-female group would have benefited the situation. My female students are nowadays more confident because they feel they can handle men, as a result of training with them. I will not encourage such a meltdown, but it's not necessarily a bad thing, since it allows the student to get over it while in class. Better have that meltdown in class rather than on the street when attacked again, right? And considering such meltdown is usually triggered by working with men, would the same psychological conditioning be possible in an all-female group? I think not. At least not to the same extent. For a woman without any past traumas, perhaps there would be less of a difference between training with men and with women, and for her 'self-defense' would have the potential to apply more equally to both sexes. But for someone with a traumatic past, it is my opinion that she would need, eventually, to deal with the offending sex. As I have written earlier - this should be a very gradual process. Perhaps one should see a psychologist before actual physical training. But a reality check is required.

This is Moni Aizik, one of the few Krav Maga instructors I like:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

Notice when he says, after a portion of more cooperative training: "(now) I'll put some pressure on her", and then goes very aggressive on his female student, projecting a truly nasty intent, even bitch-slapping her. That's realism done in the confines of safety. Shouldn't be this intense right away with beginner students of course (not even men), but it should get to it eventually.

[neijia_boxer]

Well there is always the shameless self-promotion of a full-time Tai Chi or other IMA teacher who is able to do so many techniques to his students on youtube and have no fight experience. Videos where the students flop around in push hands or get smacked around with palm slaps because they walk into the teacher with arms out like a dummy. videos designed to make the teacher look awesome when in fact they are trying to "pull wool over our eyes". aka false advertising.

It is good to know when people who have done touched hands with that teacher say that teacher "so-n-so" was not able to do those things to me unless I allowed him.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Haha, yes, these are classics... Also, there's a classic in-itself - he who shall not be named who had his own special thread on the video forum...

But seriously speaking - can one really make an 'authentic and decent' video these days?... Consider the following video as a good example for this debate:

(this again from the same Krav Maga guy I had linked to earlier)



This video was put in an Israeli martial arts group on facebook. Several people complained that this was:

- Unrealistic.

- Too scripted.

- Too cooperative.

Then again, had this been done full-speed and with resistance, then people would have complained:

- It's too messy.

- You cannot learn anything from it.

- The techniques aren't 'clean' enough.

- And that it's still scripted.

Is there really a win-win situation with posting a **promotional** video, or are 99% of them doomed to be found faulty in some way because they were not real life violence? What in your opinion would be a video featuring a proper balance as such?

[chenyaolong]

Special lineages, secret taolu, secret shen fa, hidden applications.... all available if the price is right

[pennsooner]

Any woman who has been subjected to a sexual assault might be uneasy learning self defense in a setting with men. That seems so obvious that I find it baffling that it would bother anyone.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Any woman who has been subjected to a sexual assault might be uneasy learning self defense in a setting with men. That seems so obvious that I find it baffling that it would bother anyone.

I never meant to suggest I have a problem with that. I simply don't like the concept of women-only classes. I think that even traumatized women can slowly and gradually be taught to handle male self defense oriented physicality. Wherein the situation is so dire that they cannot even begin doing so with classes involving someone grabbing their shoulder and such, then I believe therapy is probably the better answer before beginning to learn self defense.

As a teacher, you also have the privilege of choosing which student is going to train with the newbie, and order people to behave in a way conductive to the situation. You have a lot of power over the way people are going to treat each other as training partners. I think these things can affect the learning experience of an anxious new female student.

[allen2saint]

I simply don't like the concept of women-only classes. I think that even traumatized women can slowly and gradually be taught to handle male self defense oriented physicality.

Do you have experience dealing with victims of violent crimes? That unit worked next to mine in the hospital.It's a little more complicated than that. Some people are damaged for life. Even slow and gradual will not work for them if there's a man there.

[jaime_g]

I think that an appropiate programming for these women would be Therapy first, then weightlifting (a few pounds of muscle and a decent strenght boost self-confidence), then strategical self-defense (what to avoid, how to act) , then physical self-defense ( probably the less useful)

[chimerical tortoise]

Hi Jonathan,

I'd just like to take the time to respond to the "female only" part of things. Pennsooner and Allen2Saint have both voiced opinions that I fully agree with (in regards to getting down to the ugly brass tacks):

Any woman who has been subjected to a sexual assault might be uneasy learning self defense in a setting with men. That seems so obvious that I find it baffling that it would bother anyone.

Do you have experience dealing with victims of violent crimes? That unit worked next to mine in the hospital.It's a little more complicated than that. Some people are damaged for life. Even slow and gradual will not work for them if there's a man there.

It took me a long time to realise just how many ladies (and gentlemen too, I suspect! But let's leave that out for sake of brevity) have been molested, raped, assaulted. It is something that most of us, being healthy adult males from relatively secure socioeconomic backgrounds, are rarely able to hear of firsthand, let alone come to an understanding of. No offense intended, but the way that you reason does not seem to indicate much experience or insight in regards to this. But enough on this, because I think enough people have made remarks similar to the above.

Of all the above, the 'female empowerment' bullshit gets to me most.

Why does it get to you the most? Should females not be allowed to empower themselves?

Every art that I have studied has been vastly male in demographics. When a new student walks in it's all eyes on them. When said new student is a female, the vast majority of the class often have reactions that I believe make it very uncomfortable for them. Not sure if that is relevant to what you have experienced. Considering many of these groups have rarely had more than one or two females I don't see why the reverse situation shouldn't be reasonable.

'Self-defense for women only'
(as if it's possible to learn to defend against male aggressors whilst only working with females)

I'd also like to discuss here what you responded to Franklin in the post following this one.

As others have already said, I don't think that the legal precedence that you start up with holds water. Unless things have changed very much in the past two weeks I've been in the sticks, toilets are still "separate but equal" for purely practical purposes.

From a practical perspective, women might very well be taught to fear men for good reason. In just about any place I've been - I've never been to Israel - the sheer amount of fuckery that women have to put up with from men on a daily basis, not just strangers but even/especially from men that they know, is astounding if you take the time to really observe. It may very well be more practical to learn in an environment where that sort of stupidness is cut out from the inception.

You also seem to think that all women are somehow weaker or less aggressive than men. I think this is a gross overgeneralisation to say the least. There are plenty of badass women out there that would be able to contradict this statement.

You are quite right when you say that "this is down to the teacher to solve". In fact I think that the very same "female empowerment" and "women-only self-defense" descriptions are solutions that some teachers have put forth.

Having female-only classes does not exclude the same females from participating in other classes. They could very well offer an initial entry point into further forays, from a comfortable starting point that is tailored more specifically to address womens' concerns. As for what men may stand to lose from the "softness and gentleness of movement from female students"... I call bullshit on this one. Softness and gentleness, from what I know, are not traits that are unique to women. And to be frank I'm not sure I care for what "men have to lose" when compared to what "women have to gain" - furthermore I don't think it's very relevant to this discussion at all.

As for arts that are more "suitable for women" - VT is one art that is commonly marketed as a ladies' style. I have yet to see a proper VT school with a significantly different gender ratio from any other art.

I do not know what Israel is like, having never been, but from your description I can sympathise a little more with your perspective. But you seem to know exactly what you are teaching and to who, so why should what happens to 'the rest' matter? Let those people find a teacher who is more suitable for them.

Lu Da - yes, it's the name I have a problem with, but also the forcing of the group to be 'female only'.

Where people are "forced" to sign up for a kung fu class - be it male only, female only, or mixed? The existence of "female only" or "womens' self defense" classes simply reflect what people want. If that's not your cup of tea then by all means do your thing, but I really fail to see why you are so riled up about this.

Wherein the situation is so dire that they cannot even begin doing so with classes involving someone grabbing their shoulder and such, then I believe therapy is probably the better answer before beginning to learn self defense.

And martial arts training cannot be classified as a form of training? I would think that in a female-only environment, a lady with previous trauma might be far better off working with people that they are more comfortable with. The same holds true when dealing with material that is uncomfortable to begin with.

.

It reads to me that you have a very set way of looking at things (i.e. gongfu, your experiences in China, etc.) which is fine, not knocking you here. But that does not mean that your way is the only way, or that any one way is foolproof correct. Perhaps some of the responses to your thoughts may indicate that. Live and let live, nuh?

Peace and love.