Forget everything you know...

[D_Glenn]

{This thread is for discussion of basic internal bio-mechanics, so no discussion of 'Empty Force/ Ling Kong Jin', "Kong Jin", 'Qi Projection', etc.}

So, continuing from my post where the 'Xin' is like the emperor of your body, and the 'Yi' is the captain, but instead of captain, it's more like your most trusted attendant (侍 Shi), and his job is to attend to matters, tend to/ look after (侍弄 Shinong), like if your body was a garden which needs daily attention in order to build a robust and productive garden. Pathways are laid out in a garden so that you don't have to step on plants to tend to other plants. At first though, these paths aren't really different from the earth that covers the seeded plants, so it's difficult to know where to step and you have to rely on the mental images and memory to know where you planted the seeds. But over time as the plants start growing the paths in between them become more distinguishable as actual pathways, as they're worn and it looks like they're walked upon everyday and the plants are clearly separated by them.

Someone had asked me what I thought about CMK's thread: "Myelination: The Most Holy Grrrrail of Martial Arts", and I only had to read halfway through the first post to know that it's everything that had already been explained to me in Chinese Internal Martial Art terms.

These pathways that your 'Yi' travels is the nervous system of your body, and Myelination is the process.

Is there 'Yi' in external martial arts? Of course, there's 'Yi' being used in every learned thing we do. (Instinctual, autonomic movements and related physiological stuff is controlled by our 'Po'.) So our 'Yi' is more about our somatic nervous system.

If you're interested in the Western scientific model then you should read that thread. I'm gonna sit down and read it sometime this week, myself.
- viewtopic.php?f=20&t=16513

So back to internal bio-mechanics - they're complex and radically different from every other movement system out there. Your 'Yi' will create more defined pathways no matter if the movements are correct or incorrect, so it's important to learn it slowly enough so that you don't develop bad habits or bad movement-patterns before you've even learned the correct ones. Off by just in inch, then later you'll be off by miles. But since this is for martial usage, then you have to do them at your full speed at some point, as only being able to do something when moving slow, is also considered off by a mile.

It's better if you don't have previous martial art movement-patterns already ingrained as you may just slip back into those old movement-patterns.

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[suckinlhbf]

Xin (heart) is the emperor and yi is the executor. 心有所忙謂之意. What your xin wants is yi. Everything starts from your xin (heart). Xin is the mind in those literature. 心意 - xin yi.

[D_Glenn]

Xin (heart) is the emperor and yi is the executor. 心有所忙謂之意. What your xin wants is yi. Everything starts from your xin (heart). Xin is the mind in those literature. 心意 - xin yi.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I'm trying to piece this together with your previous posts on this topic but I don't understand. Could you elaborate a bit more?

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Yi - Qi - Li

So your nervous system (Yi) sends the signal to move a muscle (Li) in, say, your arm, but following the signal from the nervous system comes energy and blood in the circulatory system that is going to the muscle, so 'Yi' leads 'Qi' which leads muscle movement (Li).

Muscle contraction can also be looked at as bringing 'Qi', which brings the 'Yi', but strong muscle contraction of just the bicep or other isolated building-up of major muscle groups can impede or cause the stagnation of blood and qi.

So in Standing Strengthening practices you should really activate the muscles of the fingers and thumbs using isometric hand postures to, over time, open and unblock the microcirculation system of blood and qi flow in the arms and hands. Some blood microcapillaries are only wide enough for red blood cells to pass through in a single file, and are highly prone to being blocked up from a young age and for most of one's life. As a person ages, more and more of them get blocked and there's decreased blood flow to connective tissues, skin, fascia, bones, and in turn less blood volume and increased demand of the heart to pump, all the diseases of old age.

It's said our 'Shen' (spirit) shows through our eyes, or, rather, our eyes our linked to our 'Shen', and the only one of the 'Shens' that should be showing up in your eyes during your sober martial practice should be the 'Yi', so where you look can also be where part of our 'Yi and Qi' are directed towards, so the eyes should be looking at the fingertips to further stimulate the flow of blood and qi. But our nervous system is capable of multitasking, so another portion of your 'Yi' is focused on activating deep muscles in your abdomen/ Dantian; and another portion is focused on strongly grabbing the ground with the toes, for development in the legs. But this should become more of an instinctual habit after time and practice; and when combined with stepping methods (bu fa) will become taken under control of by our 'Dixin/ Xindi' (Ground Mind) which is kind of 'Yongquan' point in the soles (heart) of the feet and basically the lower half of the body from the waist down, and then you won't really have to divide up your 'Yi' into 3 places anymore but can just keep it focused on the hands and Dantian.

This gradual opening up of microcirculation system is called 行气如九曲珠。无微不到。 {Moving Qi through the Nine Bends Pearl; So that even the tiniest spot [in your body] can be reached.}

The Nine Bends Pearl comes from a story about Confucius:

「九曲珠」典故源於《祖庭事苑》，是說孔子困於陳的時候，得到一顆叫九曲珠的珠子，因為珠子內部的孔道非常細小，而且像迷宮一樣曲折多變，孔子用手拿線無法穿過，有兩位桑間女子教孔子用蜜塗在線上，利用螞蟻搬蜜的特性，將細線穿過九曲珠的故事。

Basically there was this large pearl that they wanted to thread onto a necklace but it couldn't by done by hand because the inside was like a maze, too many bends and turns (nine bends). This lady showed Confucius how to pour honey through the pearl, then tie the thread to an Ant. As the Ant ate it's way through the maze of the pearl and when it came out the other side, the pearl was threaded.

Which in the CIMAs basically means that there's no place in the body where Qi can't reach to, but in the untrained this isn't true: too many blocked-up capillaries in the extremities. Only after long amounts of practice, moving blood and qi, will one achieve 行气如九曲珠。无微不到。 {Moving Qi through the nine bends of the pearl; So that even the tiniest spot can be reached.} From the tip of your little finger to the tip of your small toe will all be connected as a single unit.

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[suckinlhbf]

What I mean is before Yi there is always Xin goes first. The emperer can ask his attendant to build a healthy garden. He can also ask him to take the garden away. If there is no Xin to give direction, the Yi does not know where to go for. When your Xin goes for training for health, you will train for health. If your Xin goes for training for everything, your will have a very busy attendant. I am trying to figure out what the 'Yi" is for in your thread. I should have asked you what kind of "Yi" are you trying to say in the thread, What purposes are you going to serve in "moving Qi" in your thread. Just try to understand to get a meaning reading.

[D_Glenn]

What I mean is before Yi there is always Xin goes first. The emperer can ask his attendant to build a healthy garden. He can also ask him to take the garden away. If there is no Xin to give direction, the Yi does not know where to go for. When your Xin goes for training for health, you will train for health. If your Xin goes for training for everything, your will have a very busy attendant. I am trying to figure out what the 'Yi" is for in your thread. I should have asked you what kind of "Yi" are you trying to say in the thread, What purposes are you going to serve in "moving Qi" in your thread. Just try to understand to get a meaning reading.

As I addressed in my first post - Using 'Yi' for learning martial/fighting movements, for use in fighting.

In the IMAs when done martially, (not for just health like a type of qigong or something), the health benefits are just a side-effect but they're actually greater then what you'd get from just doing a qigong form because you're ultimately moving more qi and blood around.

If you catch the flu or something, then you can dial back your martial practice to just the level of being a qigong-type practice, but as soon as you're over it, quickly ramp it back up to the intensity you were at before. There's a saying "You lose your martial legs after just 3 days without practice.", so if you're sick for 5 days then you're not going to be quite the same after.


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[suckinlhbf]

Got it. Thanks.

[Wanderingdragon]

Words are most usually taken literally without the benefit of the understanding of doing.

[D_Glenn]

What I mean is before Yi there is always Xin goes first. The emperer can ask his attendant to build a healthy garden. He can also ask him to take the garden away. If there is no Xin to give direction, the Yi does not know where to go for.

Ideally your 'Xin' (emperor) doesn't actually 'move' or "goes" anywhere, because that would represent either a great fear or fright, or extreme anger or rage, both of which impair one's 'Yi' and ability to use their learned fighting skills.

Here's some stuff already written on this thread that says it better than I could:

I learned that Yi is the focusing principle of our mental activities. When practicing, being aware of what's going on inside and intentionally produce an effect on the body mechanics without being disturbed by random thoughts and without being emotionally involved in the process can be called a stable Yi. Because of it's action of focusing Yi has also the effect of emptying the Xin.

So basically, what we try to do by using Yi is to produce changes in the body and empty the Xin of whatever has no direct relation with the practice.

Your 'Yi' should be working quickly and constantly in order to keep your 'Xin' calm, and not wanting to move about. There should be an element of fun, or playfulness (玩 Wan) to one's martial practices so that your 'Xin' can be kept occupied by that.

玩 Wan (play) is also conducive to the whole learning process but it's important to not let it get too playful, or lack seriousness, because you need to remember that in martial arts/ self defense you are 玩 Wan 命 MIng (playing with your life).


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[suckinlhbf]

Ideally your 'Xin' (emperor) doesn't actually 'move' or "goes" anywhere, because that would represent either a great fear or fright, or extreme anger or rage, both of which impair one's 'Yi' and ability to use their learned fighting skills.

Before Yi, we relax, calm down, and listen to our inner Xin which bring our instinct back. No Xin No Yi is not to push our Xin and Yi. No Yi is the real Yi. It is kind of a reverse thinking. Then, Xin doesn't move or goes anywhere.

[Wanderingdragon]

Once again I try to move away from the esoteric to the realm of the mundane. In business it is said the best managers do the least work, IME, my staff has always made sure to make me look good by seeing that everything I have trained them to do is done in preparation for a busy day, when it is slow everyone can relax, when it is busy everyone can relax, and I do only what is necessary to facilitate their being able to do their best work and present the best product. All things prepared there is no thought just do

[D_Glenn]

Before Yi, we relax, calm down, and listen to our inner Xin which bring our instinct back. No Xin No Yi is not to push our Xin and Yi. No Yi is the real Yi. It is kind of a reverse thinking. Then, Xin doesn't move or goes anywhere.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but if you use your 'Yi' to learn some martial movements, and with enough practice and time it will effect a change in your 'Po', and then those martial movements can fall under control of your 'Po' and they're more instinctual, like the way that an animal fights, but it's not "No Yi" as you can still put your 'Yi' towards 'Knowing' what the opponent is doing, as you don't have to think about your own movements, so you can just focus on his. And to a less experienced opponent it feels like the more experienced person is reading his mind, because he's reacting to and defending against attacks before they're really getting started. But it's still just the ability to think, but quickly, Think on your feet. It's like Chess where you're thinking several moves ahead, only in a fight you only need to be one or two moves ahead of your opponent, which is called 'Sui' (Following).

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[D_Glenn]

D_Glenn,
I don't think many here would recognised what you are talking about as Yi - they probably don't want to mention it because it's death by a thousand dusty old text translations, but no I don't think most people think of intent as either contemplation or consideration or knowledge. None of that is Yi to Me!

Sorry for the late reply, just going back through and seeing who I missed.

I'm not trying to change anyone's vocabulary, if it's not broke then don't fix it.

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[D_Glenn]

Hmm, in a fight ... Well, it's interesting how in (some) martial arts there is the idea of "no mind" (mu shin?). Is that, or can that be, related to "intent"? Btw, is "yi" really the same for all ima, cma or mas in general? Or, is "intent" (yi) different from one art to another?

For the Japanese concept of 無心 Mushin, the closest CMA equivalent is 無念 Wu Nian (Without Thoughts); and 無心の心 'mushin no shin' is = to 無念之念 'Wu Nian Zhi Nian' (The thought of No thoughts).

無念 Wu Nian is a lofty goal, or the ultimate level of achievement.

To get there on a day-to-day basis there is 止念 Zhi Nian (stop thoughts), is to stop all the noise, or obsessive thoughts about memories, or worry about what's happening in the future, etc.

(念 Nian, is also a variant for 唸 Nian, which means to read aloud, which children do to learn how to read. Adults, people who still move their lips when they're reading to themselves are still in a learning phase.)

So another aspect to 止念 Zhi Nian (stop thoughts) is to not 'think out loud', so to speak, when doing martial arts.

The thoughts you want to stop are the emotional-mind's thoughts (心念 Xin Nian).

So how do you 止心念 Zhi Nian (stop emotional thoughts)?

By Regulating the Emotional-Mind (調心 Tiao Xin), and controlling, calming down the 心 'Xin' is done by only using your Logical/ Intellectual-Mind's Thoughts (意念 Yi Nian).

There's no way to stop all thoughts, or thinking. You'd have to be unconscious or knocked-out.

Think of it like a sponge that you're using to mop up a mess that was spilled on the floor. You have a bucket of clean water and an empty bucket to squeeze the soon to be dirty water into. You let the dry sponge soak up some clean, clear water, then squeeze out the sponge while trying to wet and soak up some of the mess on the floor. When the sponge is fully saturated with dirty water you squeeze as much of the dirty, muddy water out into it's bucket, so that it doesn't contaminate your bucket of clean and clear water. Eventually the clean water is going to start turning from clear to dark and you'll have to pour out the, what was once clean water, as it's now dirty, and replace it it with more clean water, and continue cleaning.

念 Nian is like the sponge. A saturated sponge can't soak up any new information, while a dry, or freshly squeezed-out sponge can absorb new information.

心念 Xin Nian is like the bucket of muddy, dirty water. Confused, random, muddled thoughts.

意念 Yi Nian is like the bucket of clear, clean water. Logical, clear, and precise thinking; focus; a clear ability to concentrate.

This is an ongoing process. There's always going to be a mess to clean up. But if you keep at it, eventually there will be some progress, and there will be enough of the clean floor showing through the muck that you'll have a clean place to stand and kneel in, and then more to move around in, and so on.


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[Steve James]

Well, fwiw, the TCC "Classics" have some interesting things to say about shen, yi, li, chi/qi, hsin/xin. There's one saying, "The shen is always in the xin." That has certain implications; one of which is that external actions are the product of shen, expressed through the heart, and manipulated by the yi that moves the qi. All that is blah, blah, though. It is meaningless without a context. So, in the Classics there are metaphors such as "The Form is like that of a falcon about to seize a rabbit, and the shen is like that of a cat about to catch a rat." Of course, there are different translations, and I can't argue with any of them. But, we can always ask what the "shen" of the cat or "form" of the falcon. One is that one's outside appearance (in TCC as I was taught) should not give away one's intention or emotion. At the same time, however, one's internal spirit should be raised. There's another saying that, "Even if Mt. Tai should fall, my expression would not change." Anyway, all these are some explanations of how the theoretical terms might be applied directly to applications. I'm sure there are other explanations and translations. As long as they work for the practitioner, they're fine with me. I won't debate them. I'll just appreciate them.

[D_Glenn]

Well, fwiw, the TCC "Classics" have some interesting things to say about shen, yi, li, chi/qi, hsin/xin. There's one saying, "The shen is always in the xin." That has certain implications; one of which is that external actions are the product of shen, expressed through the heart, and manipulated by the yi that moves the qi. All that is blah, blah, though. It is meaningless without a context. So, in the Classics there are metaphors such as "The Form is like that of a falcon about to seize a rabbit, and the shen is like that of a cat about to catch a rat." Of course, there are different translations, and I can't argue with any of them. But, we can always ask what the "shen" of the cat or "form" of the falcon. One is that one's outside appearance (in TCC as I was taught) should not give away one's intention or emotion. At the same time, however, one's internal spirit should be raised. There's another saying that, "Even if Mt. Tai should fall, my expression would not change." Anyway, all these are some explanations of how the theoretical terms might be applied directly to applications. I'm sure there are other explanations and translations. As long as they work for the practitioner, they're fine with me. I won't debate them. I'll just appreciate them.

Here's a good post:

形如搏兔之鹞, 神似搏鼠之猫.

Translation:
In form resemble the falcon swooping down on the hare, in spirit the cat pouncing on the mouse.

Explanation:
Here the animal analogies are used to describe the kind of feelings that should be used in your practice. In China people think when a falcon hunts, it is very focused, the attack very sudden, quick, hard, and accurate. The falcon flies high in the sky, so there’s usually a long distance between it and its target, both of them in motion. So the falcon needs to be very focused and patient before it strikes. When it attacks, only one sudden, quick, hard, and accurate dive is required to reach the prey. People also think when a cat wants to catch a mouse, it looks very quiet before the attack, but inside it is focused and ready. And when it pounces, it’s sudden, quick, and continuous. Here the sentence tells that when you practice Taiji Quan, you should get these kinds feelings and then use them in fighting.

In Chinese we say shen is the part of your mental/spritual state that is revealed to the outside world through the eyes. That's why a lot of times shen is used as abbreviation for yan (eye) shen, or when we say "so and so's eyes have a lot of shen"...

As I wrote before, the only aspect of one's 'Shen' that should show in the eyes should be the 'Yi', and where you look is where your 'Yi' goes, but it should be phrased that the only aspect of your 'Shen' (spirit) that is behind your eyes should be your 'Yi'. So in practice, you look at say your fingertip, in order to lead more 'Ying Qi' and blood out to your hand. But you shouldn't let the 'Shen' escape or show through your eyes. You want to have a feeling of 'drawing back-in through your eyes', observe but don't stare, so you don't get caught looking. With a lot of practice this can become another subtle tool or trick really, when there's a huge difference between the showing and holding-back of 'Yi' in the eyes. Which gets into a) 'Quan wu Quan' (Fighting without Fighting) and b) 'Yi wu Yi' ([Showing] Intent without [showing] intent). But there needs to be both A) and B), as there needs to be some sense that the person is or was formidable at some point in their life, not in the sense of size, but they need to have developed some 'Shu', as in 拳術 'Quanshu' (Fighting Skills) - 術 'Shu' is comprised of a phonetic: 朮 'shu' and 行 'Xing' (meaning to walk; proceed down a road).

行 'Xing' consists of the character 彳'chì' (step with the left foot) and 亍 'chù' (step with the right foot).

Having 拳術 Quan Shu signifies that your martial skill is so advanced (you've taken so many steps down the martial path) that you could walk straight down the middle of the road and everyone gets out of your way, people avert their eyes and look down at the ground because you're the scariest MOFO on that road. It's fighting without fighting and showing intent without having to show intent.

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