The Five Shens

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:06 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:How the mind is seen in the old Chinese framework.

A common model is the 五志 wǔzhì or 5 "wills." This is derived from section of the 黄帝内经 Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic (Neijing) that looks at the storage qualities of the solid organs. Each of the Zang organs "stores" an aspect of the mind: heart-神 spirit, spleen-意 mind, lung-魄 yin "soul," kidney-志 will, liver-魂 yang "soul." This works nicely on many levels. Seeing the heart as the integration of thoughts feeling and being; the kidneys as the will to strive and survive/adrenal responses, and so on.

One of the things that causes problems is the inclusion of the 魂魄, which are pre-Heaven substrates, on this list. One of the key metaphysical assumptions of Chinese medicine is that we are defined by a dynamic interaction of primordial substrate and acquired psycho-biological traits. This list mixes and matches both these systems. I would argue there are much clearer ways of understanding the mind within the Neijing, but that this one fits the Wuxing model of nice clean five-point associations and so has been gravitated towards for centuries. If we consider the celestial (as opposed to cyclical circle and pentagram) organization of the Wuxing, this model works a little better. Then we can see an axis of spirit-mind-will, which places the emotions down in the will, the reasoning in the spleen and the spiritual things like enlightenment or wisdom in the heart. In this way the pre-Heaven aspects sit to either side.

The association of the liver and the 魂 Hun is a pretty good one. It goes like this: the blood is where the spirit is stored by the heart, blood pools in the liver in sleep, the Hun influences the spirit through dreams in sleep, hence the Hun is stored by the liver. If that is all the Hun did then it would be fine, but there is much more to it. When we look at the lung storing the 魄 Po the wheels really start to come off the bus and the Wuxing associations start to look profoundly arbitrary and strained. The Po underlies our physical substrate, nowadays we could consider genetics as part of this. As well, it plays a key role in our ability to have senses and sense experience. Not much to do with the lungs in Chinese medicine.

One of the key issues is that the Po has almost nothing to do with the mind other than providing the ability to have senses. Discussing it as part of the mind is like worrying about where you park as part of fight tactics in a martial arts competition. Sure you are going to need somewhere to put your car, but is it really directly involved in the problem? If there is a parking lot its taken care of. Yes senses are necessary for thought, but only if you lack one is it worth mentioning.

Hun and Po are much better seen in the Yin-Yang of pre-Heaven and post-Heaven development; where Po is the Yin of pre-Heaven and Hun is the Yang of pre-Heaven. In this way 精 Jing is seen as the Yin of post-Heaven and 神 Shen is seen as the Yang of post-Heaven. So in terms of pre/post-Heaven Hun is Yin to Shen's Yang (because Hun is the Yang of the Yin and Shen is Yang of the Yang); and in this way Po is the Yin to Jing's Yang (because Po is the Yin of the Yin and Jing is the Yin of the Yang). Because each one is a Yin-Yang relationship between each one is a particular Qi, follow?

One of the useful things about the preceding model is that you can see how Po is the most Yin and therefore the least changeable. Shen is the most Yang and therefore the most changeable. Po provides the stable platform of protein synthesis and primate traits. Hun provides the innate aspirations and deep tendencies of emotional character as well as the dreams of life; it is who you wish you were. Jing is the acquired constitution derived from physical behavior and diet. Shen is the acquired personality; who you think you are. So Hun-Po provide the possibility of ourselves that gets acted out in the post-Heaven as the interplay of Shen and Jing (with of course the 真气/regular Qi that we usually refer to being that interplay).

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Ok, so to the mind itself. What we are really talking about is the Shen, which has narrow and broad meanings. Broadly Shen is the whole psycho-emotional system of the self, conscious and unconscious together. Narrowly Shen is the spiritual aspects of the self. The part that feels religious awe or spiritual movement. Lets consider that I'm using the broad meaning only from now on.

Because the heart stores the Shen (in the blood) the two terms were freely used interchangeably throughout the Neijing, though more often 心 heart stands for Shen than vice-versa. Often when the word for heart is used it means Shen broadly.

意 Yi means the reasoning mind but not the emotions. So it is a part of Shen/Xin but not the totality. Because it is a part of the mind and the heart stores the mind (in the blood) sometimes when someone says heart they actually mean thinking mind which is Yi.

情 Qing is emotion and is considered a part of the broader Shen. Very closely associated with the heart its is often what is specifically referred to when the term Xin is used, but it does not overlap Yi at all. Like in Xinyi, this refers to emotions and reason together. In fact Qing is rarely used in discourse and Xin is most often substituted, especially in martial arts and Qigong. If Qing is referred to it is often only in the context of the 七情 Qi Qing or 7 emotions, which are the specific manifestations of Qing.

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There is another model of the mind from the Neijing that is more clear as it describes the reasoning process. It breaks the mind down into 5 pieces. Unfortunately it recycles terminology from other places so you need to recognize that these are further narrowing of meanings. It begins with 意 Yi, and here it means the ability to grasp an object of sense experience. It is the ability of the senses to coalesce around a thing or idea and distinguish it from the background. Like metal in the Wuxing it condenses and takes shape.

Next is 志 Zhi, usually seen as the will, but here it is also the memory. We take the object of sense experience deeply into ourselves and compare it to our sense of self. “Ok I see it, what is it to me?” The Zhi is a deep aspect of self that comes the closest to the truth of who we really are. Often say to students that if they really want to feel Zhi do this experiment with someone they trust. Lay down in a tub of water with your face below the water level and you partner holding your shoulders down. Have them count to ten once you try to start getting up for air, even if (especially if!) you struggle. That thing that comes from your core to get up out of the water... Zhi. It is this aspect of self that the first relation of the outside experience is compared to. Very much like water in the Wuxing as goes down to depths.

思 Si si next and could be translated as contemplation. It is often rendered as over-thinking or pensiveness, but these are just when it becomes pathological. We call this the librarian. The object of sense experience is the new acquisition and now you cross-reference it. This is the spleen and its function to separate clear from turbid. That quality of earth that can place things in just the right spot.

虑 Lu is the next stage and where the intake now becomes the beginning of expression. Lu is the plan that forms based on the object, how it relates to you and the associations it evokes. This is, of course, the quality of the liver and of wood. Purposefully driving from the root to the leaf to strive for the light.

智 Zhi is the wisdom that comes from the completion of the action. I saw this, it meant this to me, it made me think of that, so I did this and... now where am I? In an ideal world this is also satisfaction. That free opening from the center of a joyful result, just like the heart.

While these terms are narrower they do serve to bring a level of precision to what we are talking about. We all have tendencies to focus more on one or another of these stages. Some are thinkers and spend too much time in the associations of 思. Some are driven and get right to the plan with out taking care of the what things really mean. Some are addicted to the satisfaction of the end point.

All of these things can inform us about what kind of people we have become through the way we live our lives. What is the process of alchemy if it not the alignment of our acquired selves with our innate potential? Certainly internal mechanics are great for resolving issues of the tissue (精), but if issues of the mind are not also addressed then I would argue that you are just doing mechanics. Most of the dismissal of the internal-external issue on this board has come down to only the meat, so of course there is little difference. I would argue that internal is about the mind, and if the way you think is not part of your training you are not doing internals now matter what your style.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:07 pm

From 萇乃周 Chang Naizhou's (1736 - 1795) writings on Internal Martial Arts:

苌氏武技书 卷一

中气论

中气者,即仙经所谓元阳,医者所谓元气,以其居人身之正中,故武备名曰中气。此气即先天真乙之气,文炼之则为内丹,武炼之则为外丹。然,内丹未有不借外丹而 成者也。盖动静互根,温养合法,自有结胎还元之妙。俗学不谙中气根源,惟务手舞足蹈,欲入元窍,必不能也。人自有生以来,禀先天之神以化气,积气以化精。 当父母构精,初凝于虚危穴內,虚危穴前对脐,后对肾,非上非下,非左非右,不前不后,不偏不倚,正居人一身之当中,称天根,号命门,即《易》所谓太极是 也。真阴真阳,俱藏此中,神实赖之。

此气之灵明,发为五脏之神:心之神、肝之魂、脾之意、肺之魄、肾之精与志。赖此主持,呼吸依之,吸采天地之气,呼出五脏之气。呼自命门而肾而肝而脾而心而 肺,吸自肺而心而脾而肝而肾而命门,十二经十五络之流通系焉。经络者,气血之道路也。人一呼气血流三寸。呼吸定息,共行六寸。人一日一夜凡一万三千五百 息,昼夜行八百一十丈,阳行二十五度,阴亦行二十五度,共计昼夜凡五十度,遍周于身。自脏腑而出于经络,自经络而入于脏腑,从此而生两仪。乃生肾而骨(肾有左阴右阳), 肾属水脏,水能生木。肝属木脏,而生筋;筋附于骨,乃生肝而长筋,木能生火。心属火脏,而主血脉,火能生土。脾属土脏,而生肌肉,土能生金。肺属金脏,而 主皮毛,乃生肺而长皮毛。五脏以次而长,六腑以次而生,是形之成也。因真乙之气,妙合而成,气之聚也,由百骸毕具而寓。一而二,二而一,原不可须臾离也。 武备如此,练形以合外,炼气以实内,坚硬如铁,自成金丹不坏之体,则超凡入圣,上乘可登。若云敌人不惧,尤其小焉者也。

{Chang Family Martial Skills Book Part One

Middle Qi Theory

"Middle (中 Zhong) Energy (Qi)" is also what the Ancient Daoist Classics call "元陽 Yuan Yang" (Original 'Yang'), and TCM calls "Yuan Qi" (Original Energy). Since it resides in the center/ middle of the human body it's called "Zhong Qi" in the Martial Arts.

This type of Energy is our Initial Pre-Heaven Energy. On the Mindful side it's cultivated using Neidan (internal practices). On the Martial side it's cultivated using Weidan (external practices). Thus Internal and External practices are always combined to achieve the cultivation of 'Zhong Qi'.

Using both Movement and Stillness is the basis for generating warmth and building up a solid supply of Energy in the body, which is like depositing money in a bank. Common people don't know of 'Zhong Qi' because they're worried about day to day business and then going out and enjoying their free time. Doing what they desire is like only taking money out of a bank, only having enough money to live day to day.

From birth one is getting Pre-Heaven 神 'Shen' (spirit) from the conversion of Energy (氣 Qi), they have an abundance of Energy from the conversion of 精 'Jing' (essence).

From the mother and father we get 精 'Jing' (essence). It first concentrates at an empty space on the inside behind the navel and in front of the kidneys. No higher, no lower, not left, not right, not too far forward, not too far back, just exactly in the center of the whole body and the center of gravity. It's commonly referred to as the 'Mingmen' (gate of life) but is also called 'Taiji' (point of transformation) in the classics. It's the True Yin and True Yang and is concealed in the Center on which our 神 'Shen' (spirit) depends. This energy is quick and moves like sunlight breaking through the clouds. It gives rise to the 神 'Shen' (spirit) of the Five Organs: Heart 心神 'Xin - Shen' (Mind Spirit), Liver 魂 'Hun', Spleen 意 'Yi', Lung 魄 'Po', Kidney 精 'Jing' (Essence) and 志 'Zhi' (Will). Together these allow the person to live in the world and take in energy from the world and invigorate the Five Organs. Breathing out/ exhaling starts at the 'Mingmen'/ Gate of Life, goes to the kidneys, liver, spleen, heart, then the lungs and out. Inhaling comes into the lungs, to the heart, spleen, liver, kidneys, and back to the Gate of Life/ 'Mingmen'.

The breath and blood spread through Yin and Yang meridians and blood vessels to every part of the body. So from the organs stems the flow to the meridians. From the meridians the energy flows back to the organs, called: 兩儀 Liang Yi (Yin and Yang), and thus is born the two kidneys, and from the kidneys comes bones (the left kidney is Yin, the right is Yang). The Kidney is the Water Organ. Water gives birth to the trees (Wood). The Liver is the Wood Organ and develops the Tendons. The Tendons attach to the bones (kidneys). Thus the Liver is the controller the Tendons. Wood is capable of starting Fire. The Heart is the Fire Organ and controls the blood vessels. Trees burning return wood to the Earth. The Spleen is the Earth Organ and controls the Muscles. From the Earth is mined the precious Metals. The Lung is the Metal Organ and develops the skin and hair. Thus the Lungs are the controller of the exterior opening to the world (skin, inside lining of the lungs). The Five Yin Organs, and their sequence, also control and invigorate the Six Yang Organs. Thus the True Qi invigorates all the Organs, Tissues, and the Bones of the body but rely on one another and the whole will die without each other.

For Martial Development training the outside/ external shape of the body along with the internal health of the body makes the whole body like a hard yet flexible, unbreakable weapon. And it feels like other people are just small clouds when you meet/ [strike] them.}

***

In the Chinese Martial Arts we talk about 意 'Yi' and not so much about 心神 'XinShen' (Mind Spirit) because our mind is our consciousness, which initiates the thought, it's our 意 'Yi' that does all the work to carry out the thoughts. Our 意 'Yi' is our Mind's tool. It's the one aspect we naturally have, (and actually need to have) somatic control of, as it controls the 肌肉 Jirou (skeletal muscles and flesh).

The movement of Skeletal Muscle in turn moves our bones and structure - Bio-Mechanics, called: 力 Li.

The changes and variations in the Flesh; where there is a shifting between 鬆 sōng (relaxation) and 緊 jǐn (tension) is called: 勁 Jin.


靜 Jing/ Stillness:
The 魂 'Hun' has control over the tendons and by using our 意 'Yi' we can only impart a gradual change in the tendons over a period of time. This is done through the use of 'Standing Practices' (Externally Still, Internally Moving) while using our 意 'Yi', controlling our muscle and flesh to be constantly stretching the tendons and extending the tendons outward. Through daily practice the tendons then become reconditioned so that instead of impeding our martial movements they're actually aided by the newly conditioned tendons. The result is a significant increase in the speed that one can move when the muscles aren't being hindered by the tendons.

The 魄 'Po' has autonomic control over the exterior. The opening and closing of the pores of the skin - aka the 'Exiting' and 'Entering' of 'Guardian Energy' (Weiqi), is how the skin contracts and tightens instinctively when one is being hit or struck to protect the interior. During 'Standing Practice' there is movement of Blood and 'Nourishing Energy' (Yingqi) going out the extremities as the 意 'Yi' is activating the muscles and signaling the need for more blood. We can also urge the Spirit and 魄 'Po' by using our Eyes to look at the hands or tips of the fingers, or look to where we want the most blood to move to in the Standing Posture, which is typically the 出手 'Chu Shou' (Outgoing hand) in the Posture. Over time, more and more capillaries are opened up and the skin is further nourished. This increased nourishment of the skin allows the 魄 'Po' to work more efficiently and there is a change at the cellular level of the skin and tissues.


動 Dong/ Movement:
In Moving Practices (Externally and Internally Moving) we are limited by (as Kevin mentioned) our 魄 'Po' - Pre-Heaven' condition. But, when learning a Martial Art, we at first use our imagination combined with our 意 'Yi' so that the 魂 'Hun' (as Kevin mentioned - is who or what we want to be) can gradually impart changes on our 魄 'Po'. When someone is in a car accident the 魄 'Po' takes over control of our body because it's in control of our relationship with the outside world ( or as Kevin wrote - the senses) and it's direct control of the senses happens at a much faster speed than we can think or react. In a fight or dire situation our 魄 'Po' also takes over but through practice and training we can impart a new set of Martial tools for our 魄 'Po' to employ by practicing everyday with intent (意 'Yi'); visualizing and imagining movements and applications in our mind's eye; and ultimately practicing enough so that our 魂 'Hun' imparts a change in our 魄 'Po' at the spiritual level.

This is considered going in reverse(逆 Ni) of the Natural Order of Things, where the Post-Heaven imparts changes and transforms the Pre-Heaven.

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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:09 pm

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:I fear that what I have written is being read as a "mind only" approach to the concept of internal work. This is not what I'm saying. I have reacted to a stand that has become accepted on this board that internal mechanics is internal and that, since most systems well studied lead to internal mechanics, the idea of 内家 internal school is irrelevant. I am a believer in the power of internal mechanics and I agree that there are many paths to these skills that lie outside the so-called internal styles. To my understanding what makes a style internal is that it includes the training of the mind in an explicit rather than implicit way. Its not a question of "or" its a question of "and."

Back in the 12th century, Chen Yan wrote the Prescriptions on the Premise Diseases Have Three Causes 三因极一病证方论. It lays out external causes (pathogens), internal causes (the seven emotions) and neither (diet, fatigue, parasites, sexual intemperance, etc.). This frame work has been largely been standard thinking since that time. To state it clearly, the internal cause of disease in Chinese medicine is the mind. The 内 in 内因 refers to the mind and emotions. I don't see this any differently in martial arts.

One of the ways that can come up for us in the martial arts is sensitivity training with a partner. When I first touched internal stylists they tossed me around like a doll. All of my previous martial arts training; my strength, speed and fitness, was irrelevant. What I was taught was to look at what was happening when I was trying to win, or succeed, or score a point. What was my desire doing to my body when faced with the stress of another contrary will? It was not easy to begin to become honest with myself about what I was trying to do in push-hands.

In a nutshell that is all there is to any of this, honesty. A brutal honesty with yourself when under stress. What am I unwilling to accept? One teacher I had said "you are trying to conquer me and I am trying to conquer me, that is why you will never win." As Bhassler alluded, you need to kill your own ego first. So, for me at least, the place where I practice this is in the experience of touch.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:11 pm

"Experientially then, how does one discern from the Hun (my personal Truth) to the Shen (the truth as I'd like it to be)?"

In the 文始真經 'Wen Shi Zhen Jing' aka the "關尹子" "Guan Yin Zi"*, written in nine chapters: first, there are The 'Four Symbols' (四符) -

The Shen is fire. Jing is water. Without Jing we die [of old age, burning out, and disease]. Suddenly or abruptly, when we're without Shen, we will also die [accidental death or killed].

The Shen is the head, the Jing is the tail. We need both our head and tail to live.

Jing is water and using water we clear away the dirt and sand to find gold. Gold is the 'Po'.

Shen is fire, the 'Hun' is wood, and by burning the wood we produce the 'Hun'.

The '4 Symbols': 水为精为天,火为神为地,木为魂为人,金为魄为物。

{Water is 精 Jing (Essence) and 天 Tian (Sky); Fire is 神 Shen (Spirit) and the 地 Di (Ground); Wood is 魂 Hun (Ethereal Soul) and the 人 Ren (Person); Gold is 魄 Po (Corporeal Soul) and the 物 Wu (Creature).}

All living creatures have the '4 symbols'. The 'Po' is the primal, instinctual thing that drives the mind during the day, the 'Hun' dreams at night, learns from what happened the previous day so that the next day the 'Po' can be adapted and have learned from experiences. Animals live their whole lives under control of their Hun and Po.

The human 'Po', because Gold is found in the Ground (地 Di) that from our 神 Shen (Spirit) comes our 意 'Yi'. From the 'Yi' we get our emotions (our Shen is now Xin-Shen (emotional spirit) and our 意 'Yi' also imparts our 'awareness of self', the higher consciousness, and we are able to make careful, meticulous plans and calculations and contemplate the workings of the universe.

The 'Yi' is related to the Earth and we have the 'Five Elements' (Wu Xing) and it's Cycles: [1- Thought (意 'Yi') / Earth (土 Tǔ)] leads to --> [2-Physical/ Corporeal (魄 Po) / Gold (金 jīn)] --> [3- Essence (精 Jing) / Water (水 shuǐ)] --> [4- Ethereal 魂 Hun / Wood (木 Mù)] --> [5- Desires (心神 Xin-Shen) / Fire (火 Huǒ)] and back to #1.

#1 - The Earth/ 'Yi', can contain or conceal gold, it's where fire is started or it can be thrown over a fire and snuff it out, it can be used to dam up water or divert water to flow in the direction you want, but the Earth is always growing plants and trees (Wood), as all the creatures of the world need to sleep, but the quality and growth of the Wood is determined by the amount of Water it gets (Jing - our Intrinsic Health). So our 意 'Yi' is the most important part as it's our control over every other factor.

The 意 'Yi' is our ability to control what and when we eat. If the food is good then it increases our physical constitution (魄 Po), the 'Po', like all creatures is all the things they need to do in the day to survive. The 'Yi' controls the 'Po' by determining what we do in the day. If we constantly overexert ourselves or succumb to addictive substances and behaviors then our constitution/ 'Po' is weakened which begins to deplete our 精 'Jing'.

If your 'Jing' is healthy, then you have a strong will (志 'Zhi' - Water Element); and a strong water element will affect the 魂 'Hun' (wood) which will allow your dreams/ personal truth to be wholly obtainable and the things you learned during the day will be set in your mind/ truly learned and closer to something that can be habit/ or done with little to no thought.

Healthy dreams (healthy 魂 'Hun'), allow one to awaken calm, without depression and ready to tackle the day, and the 心神 'Xin-Shen' (Emotional Spirit/ Wants and Desires) can be fulfilled and, in turn, your ability to focus your 意 'Yi' is then stronger, and the cycle is repeated.


So the only thing we really have control over is our own 意 'Yi' and in order to improve and ultimately control the other 4 aspects is first done through making good decisions about what we eat and drink, which supports the health of the spleen and ultimately all the organs of the body.

Then determining what we physically and mentally do, the actions we undertake in a day can also be under our control, or of our own volition, rather than being driven solely by our instincts. But to be truly beneficial it needs to be done through our 意 'Yi' thought, with focus, intentional.

Any type of work or labor, under a boss or under duress of time or making money, whether it's physical labor or mental work while sitting at a desk, is not really beneficial as it's working under time constraints and the need to get the job finished, so it ends up being either too physically or too mentally demanding and can deplete the Jing and Shen. You will still dream about what you do during the day no matter but compounding the issue is if you don't enjoy your work then your dreams will be bad and you wake up a little worse off each day.

Just up and quitting one's job is probably not an option either, so, if the intake of good food and water is already being covered, then we need to work at playing (玩 wán) while exercising. An exercise where you're physically moving, while you're thinking about- using 意 'Yi', but it's something you enjoy, it's fun, it's not too physically demanding, nor too complex which would make it too mentally demanding.

It needs to be just the right amount of physical exertion ( breathing is associated with the 'Po' ) combined with just enough self-discovery and use of imagination so that it both stimulates the 'Po' and the 'Hun'. (If your 'XinShen'/ Emotional Spirit/Mind is out of whack it can overact on your 意 'Yi' and tell you "If just a little bit of play is good, then a lot of play should be really good!" and in turn increases the heart rate, compounding the bad state of the 'Xin-Shen').

So pacing one's own self is priority #1, not only by being guided by your breathing and heart rate but also other changes like if you're adapting to the practice by getting stronger or making adaptations in accordance to the seasons, weather, and temperature and how much or how little you sweat, is there increased blood flow getting to the extremities, etc., if the intensity of the practice is not stimulating enough then increments need to happen at a quicker pace. To lax in one's practice is no better than lying on a couch.

If you only practice/play every other day or 3rd day or once a week then you may tend to become anxious in anticipation and will likely overdo it every time you practice. You need to make it a habit, like the necessity to eat and drink can become something people enjoy, so by doing it everyday of every week it becomes not only something your body needs but you feel better after doing it and it allows you to see how your body can adapt to the cycles of nature and seasonal changes. Nature keeps changing everyday and you miss out on it if you're only practicing every other day and miss even more if you practice even less than that.

Over time, you will gradually increase the quality and increment the levels of the physical exercise and the amount of mental focus (意 'Yi') you put into it.

After some time, this manner of practice and playfulness can also be put into the things you need to do everyday, like cooking food, making tea, etc. but not rigid or confined as it needs to be constantly changing so that you're learning and challenging yourself.

Martial Arts and in particular the Chinese Internal Martial Arts are designed to fit into this way of practicing and in turn help to increase not only one's martial skills but also the physical, mental, and emotional health of the practitioner.


* ~ The "文始真經 Wenshi zhenjing" -- http://ctext.org/wenshi-zhenjing aka the "關尹子" "Guan Yin Zi", written in nine chapters -- http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%97%9C ... 9%E5%AD%90

The Wenshi zhenjing does not appear until the Yuan dynasty, when it is mentioned in Chen Zhensun's Zhizhai shuluyjieti , dated to 1240. It was probably compiled by the Quanzhen patriarch Yin Zhiping (1169-1251), an alleged descendant of Guan Yin. Before that time, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, remnants of an older text are mentioned in various Song bibliographies, but they have not survived.


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Re: The Five Shens

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:10 pm

This again is the dragon whose head knows only its tail as the beginning of no end. These are the words that talk about the doing which you cannot know unless you have done what is the doing.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:29 pm

Miro wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Our 'Yi' is our thoughts or thinking that keeps our 'Xin' (heart/emotions) under control. So our 'Yi' (thoughts) are used to govern our 'Xin' (emotions). Rather then our emotions governing our thoughts.

The explanation I got from various teachers of mine is different. Yi does not mean "thoughts" (it is better to translate it as "intent") and it certainly can not control xin "heart" (not "emotions"). Xin is simply our nature, dispositions we are born with, dispositions we normally can not change (a choleric person can not decide that from now on he will not be choleric anymore, that he becomes for example flegmatic person). It is possible to work on change of heart by meditations or by martial arts (for example, introverts usually have closed chest, extroverts usually have open chest - a good martial arts teacher can close or open chest of his student and this way to change his introvertness or extrovertness) but it goes slowly... Xin is a place where our (involuntary) reactions starts and most of them die right there. Only small part goes to the brain (if the original impuls is interesting or strong enough) and it becomes yi (now we can call it "attachment", for example look at beatiful girl, but this still is not "thoughts"). Only next step is "thoughts" (without or with consciousness).

Miro

I was wondering if you could continue with that paradigm some more?

The one I'm familiar with is 'Xin' is the 'emotional mind'; while 'Yi' is the 'wisdom, or logical mind'.

The 'Xin' is Yang; 'Yi' is Yin.

Xin is fire; Yi is the water that cools the fire (keeps yang under control).

Our Yi should be doing the thinking in the martial arts, as the Xin is prone to fright and flight.

.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby UniTaichi on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:00 pm

Hi D_Glenn,

The Five Shen is more relevant to those who are studying or practising TCM or Daoist alchemy. Which is why most here are not able to relate to it. However, some school eg. LHBF Sifu Kum Tong would definitely know what you are talking about, which is about the relationship between Yi and the 5 shen. However, it is still not the Yi which I am talking or as most knows it. The Yi itself also contain many level for beginners to advance.

The post on the Middle Qi theory is more relevant. The word Yi have many facade, like the 5 aspect ;
[quoteour 意 Yi also consists of five aspects- 意 Yi (focus), 志 Zhi (determination), 思 Si (contemplation), 虑 Lu (Consideration), and then 智 Zhi (knowledge). ][/quote]

IMUAE, for IMA, Yi is ''intent'' (one meaning which I like; is the state of mind with which an act is done : violation ) in which we learn to use it to emit the 8 energy of Taijiquan.

Cheers,
UniTaichi :)
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby leifeng on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:27 pm

Hun and Po are much better seen in the Yin-Yang of pre-Heaven and post-Heaven development; where Po is the Yin of pre-Heaven and Hun is the Yang of pre-Heaven. In this way 精 Jing is seen as the Yin of post-Heaven and 神 Shen is seen as the Yang of post-Heaven. So in terms of pre/post-Heaven Hun is Yin to Shen's Yang (because Hun is the Yang of the Yin and Shen is Yang of the Yang); and in this way Po is the Yin to Jing's Yang (because Po is the Yin of the Yin and Jing is the Yin of the Yang). Because each one is a Yin-Yang relationship between each one is a particular Qi, follow?


I don't understand this. Could you tell me your reference? because as far as I have read Shen and Hun are yang and Shen is yang of the yang whereas Hun is yin of the yang. Also po and jing are yin and jing is yin of the yin whereas po is yang of the yin.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:41 pm

Pre-Heaven is Yin to Post-Heaven which is Yang. So from that perspective Hun and Po are less changeable, and therefore more Yin than either Shen or Jing which are more changeable. Remember that nothing in Chinese medicine is intrinsically Yin or Yang, only relatively Yin or Yang. Something can be Yin in one frame and Yang in another.

If I recall correctly it comes from a reading of the Baopuzi. I learned it as a model of existence from the family tradition of Leung Kok-Yuen/Liang Geyuan (one of the first two licensed acupuncturists in the US, the other being my first acupuncture teacher Roger Langrick).
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:37 am

Ok, words, here are some words that give a very basic understanding of the high concepts you want to discuss. I think from these words you can get a very basic grasp on what is intent as well.

http://www.maryland-acupuncture.org/2ShenHun.doc
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby leifeng on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:47 am

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:Pre-Heaven is Yin to Post-Heaven which is Yang. So from that perspective Hun and Po are less changeable, and therefore more Yin than either Shen or Jing which are more changeable. Remember that nothing in Chinese medicine is intrinsically Yin or Yang, only relatively Yin or Yang. Something can be Yin in one frame and Yang in another.

If I recall correctly it comes from a reading of the Baopuzi. I learned it as a model of existence from the family tradition of Leung Kok-Yuen/Liang Geyuan (one of the first two licensed acupuncturists in the US, the other being my first acupuncture teacher Roger Langrick).


I couldn't find much on this subject but from the classical books I find this explanation for 随神往来者谓之魂,并精而出入者谓之魄:

(精对神而言,则神为阳而精为阴;魄对魂而言,则魂为阳而魄为阴。故魂则随神而往来,魄则并精而出入。愚按∶精神魂魄,虽有阴阳之别,而阴阳之中,复有阴阳之别焉。如神之与魂皆阳也,何谓魂随神而往来?盖神之为德,如光明爽朗、聪慧灵通之类皆是也。魂之为言,如梦寐恍惚、变幻游行之境皆是也。神藏于心,故心静则神清;魂随乎神,故神昏则魂荡。此则神魂之义,可想象而悟矣。精之与魄皆阴也,何谓魄并精而出入?盖精之为物,重浊有质,形体因之而成也。魄之为用,能动能作,痛痒由之而觉也。精生于气,故气聚则精盈;魄并于精,故形强则魄壮。此则精魄之状,亦可默会而知也。然则神为阳中之阳,而魂则阳中之阴也;精为阴中之阴,而魄则阴中之阳者乎。

http://www.zysj.com.cn/lilunshuji/leijing/481-8-9.html

It clearly says that jing is xing and po is the function.


IMO in terms of changing you can easily affect the po with one needle but there is very little you can do to affect the jing in one treatment.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:28 am

UniTaichi wrote:The Five Shen is more relevant to those who are studying or practising TCM or Daoist alchemy. Which is why most here are not able to relate to it. However, some school eg. LHBF Sifu Kum Tong would definitely know what you are talking about, which is about the relationship between Yi and the 5 shen. However, it is still not the Yi which I am talking or as most knows it. The Yi itself also contain many level for beginners to advance.

I think it's really important for people who are just practicing the IMAs to know about this, as there needs to be a physical understanding of Daoist stuff, as it pertains to building up a Dantian, and to know some stuff about how Classical Chinese Medicine works, and regularly visit an acupuncturist who is knowledgeable with 'balancing the five shens'.

There's 'Yi moves Qi moves Li'. And before one really starts to get into this stuff they should really be taking the long, gradual route of opening up their blood circulation system (where the Jing and the Po move), as this is the grounding that's required. A person can learn to move their 'shen' (spirits like 'Yi) to essentially anywhere, but if they don't have the ability to allow it to return to the inside of the body, from anywhere, then they're causing 'shen' dispersion, which can lead to many subtle psychosis that just go under the radar and ability for their 'Po' to register, but will have a gradual change upon the practitioners reality (the hun and xin).

There's a lot of Chinese people who have 'shen disorders', stemmed from their misguided or self-taught practices, who are now teaching those same things to Westerners.

.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:27 am

There's a lot of Chinese people who have 'shen disorders', stemmed from their misguided or self-taught practices, who are now teaching those same things to Westerners.

So we have to find the right teacher to learn from. Coding and Decoding messages play a big part in absorbing knowledge too. Using western mindset to interpret eastern literatures doesn't work either. It is challenging and interesting. Anyway, it is good to have a kick off than doing nothing.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby mixjourneyman on Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:05 pm

Thanks to both Kevin and Glenn for this stuff,
having personally slowed down a lot as a martial artist, but moved forward in daoist practice, I would say that this stuff is quite relevant, if you have an intention to include meditation within the framework of your gongfu practice.
In terms of building up martial related skills, this is something which perhaps would be useful at a time very far down the line, after ten or more years of practice, but for beginners will just confuse them.
Another thing that is worth mentioning is that reading these works in classical Chinese, and in English are two very different tasks and that the English translation of them can really only outline a vague map.
I have been doing quite a lot of work with dao de jing recently, as well as jin dan bi yao, and I applaud people who translate, because it really is difficult work.
I have no qualm with anything that was said here, but remember something my teacher told me early on; "martial arts, meditation and medicine are all separate practices. at a high level, it is good to combine them together, but in order to do so, you first need to have a very good foundation."
I would go so far as to say that if people really want to understand these things, they pretty much have to learn to read classical Chinese and also find a teacher who can explain it to them.
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Re: The Five Shens

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:34 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:http://www.maryland-acupuncture.org/2ShenHun.doc

Thanks.

That's Giovanni, I have one of his books and have followed his blog. He translates a lot of terms very close to how my Chinese teacher describes them. i.e. 'Yi' is 'thought' or better 'intellect'.

Here's a blog post of his that's really good: http://maciociaonline.blogspot.com/2012 ... icine.html

There was a recent thread talking about 'body upright' (shen Zheng) but not 'leaning' (bu xie), which isn't the physical body, but as Giovanni describes it (身 shen), that martial saying should be translated as the 'self' (or body and mind/spirit) that needs to be upright and whole, not crooked, slanted.

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