Mysterious taiji power

[XiaoXiong]

Here's a clips often questioned. Here we can discuss the stuff that's hard for many to see. Please ask away, post away, criticize or whatever here.
Jess

[everything]

Some will say:
- *must be faking
- won't work uncooperatively, etc.

Despite all that it is still mysterious. I've been moved "mysteriously" but never like that.

[ors]

OK Jess!

Here is his teacher, Li Jingwu:



Do you think that they do the same thing, or not? If they do the same thing, why the reactions of their partners differ so much? If they don't do the same thing, which one is better?

Örs

[ors]

Of course.

[Sean]

Oh, this is the thread where we can actually call stuff like this a hoax without being personally insulted?

Ok, it's a hoax. Clearly fake. Poppycock. Bullocks. Even the Chinese make fun of this kind of stuff, and rightly so.

[wiesiek]

ok
LI Jingwu power is much less mysterious /don`t wont to say- easy visible /
even for semi blind fart like me
so
we have here classic example - student outgrow the teacher
some jumping quality connect- 1st and 3rd videos, kinda of mysterious way dough ...

[windwalker]

the first question should be can any here do it?
followed by how is it done?


another of master wangs, students
6:11 is the same thing being shown and done at :17 in the first clips with teacher bian.

the methods by which this is done is what much
of my own work is based on.

why is it when things are explained, and demoed there is still so much confusion?
in the old days, if one trained in CMA, if you didnt get it, guess what, you didnt get it
part of the training was to weed out those that either didnt have the talent or the intellect

[wiesiek]

sorry, but NO
6,11 - he has one point connection to pull /doing kuzushi/, or manipulate thru his structure if you prefer.
action before :17 from the 1st v,:
she has two points /wirst and elbow/ catches uke "stiffens" and press.
he may jumps or not - his choice

common is catching "frozen structure" of the uke, of course

[wiesiek]

p.s.
to answer the q.:
I can do 6.11
for :17 need cooperative uke

[everything]

frozen structure anyone here can do or experience. standing arm bar for example. clearly not mysterious.

back on topic, before the question of can you do it is have you felt anything like what seems to be felt in the hoax/mystery. if no, clearly you will answer "hoax" and move on. if yes, the questions become more difficult.

[dspyrido]

So for those who felt it can you explain what happened? Were you willing to fight it & still ended up jumping around? And do you think it would work in the same way if they take on a person with conditioned killer intent & physical ability or will it devolve into the sad kia master situation?

[dspyrido]

Oh & what alexg said - why only demo on students yet still post public promotional videos? If they're mysterious then why so many videos & articles with no scientific or non-screened "attackers"?

[D_Glenn]

What I, Ors, and many other people are trying to say, going on roughly 2+ years now, is that the video of Wang Peisheng is real, he's the real deal.

Everything that comes after that was filmed, should be suspect.

I don't see any point in interrupting the fun, if people are falling down and calling each other "sensei." For where's the harm?

klonk,
I would not be so hasty to assume that the contemporary aikido you see today, with people voluntarily throwing themselves and "blending," is the Aikido created and practiced by Morihei Ueshiba.

Instead, I would hasten to find and get my hands on one of the people reputed to have genuine aiki/internal skills so you can get at least an inkling of the skill that Ueshiba had, and which was largely lost to his first-generation students, and completely lost to generations thereafter.

You may not believe that Ueshiba had anything, but that is based on what you have observed in today's aikido. That is a mistake. There are reasons why aikido ended up as it did, but you would have to be motivated to do a little research to better understand it. I recommend you read Ellis Amdur's book, "Hidden in Plain Sight" (order it here: http://www.edgework.info/buy.html ) for starters. No, I don't get any kickbacks from Mr. Amdur. It's just a good, thoughtful book that has some great historical info along with the author's opinions and conjectures, drawn from his decades of august martial knowledge and experience.

That's a very interesting book. As it turns out Mr. Amdur is from Pittsburgh originally, and when he visited 1-2 years ago, he met with my teacher (Zhang Yun). Later when the book came out, I told my teacher about one of its main points: Daito-ryu as Ueshiba's teacher practiced it, had similar internal skills found in Chinese internal martial arts, that it was passed down to Ueshbia and very few others, but it's mostly lost today in Aikido, that they need to recover it by learning it from Chinese martial arts. To which my teacher responded "that's great for Aikido people, but we're in danger of losing those ourselves, where can we go to recover it?!"

It's sad but true, take an average person to see a large random sample of Taiji schools, and they'll think it look just as 'fake' as modern Aikido.

One thing interesting about this fakeness though, it's actually a key indicator that this was originally a very good lineage. In Taiji Quan there's an old adage, "good Taiji Quan looks like magic (fake trick)". The bystanders, without touching the person executing the skill, couldn't even understand why the other guy cannot fight back. When my oldest brother Strider came home from China, he showed to his grandfather tape of himself sparring with Master Wang Peisheng. His grandfather was a real boxing insider: professional boxer and trainer. And his grandfather became frustrated and angry watching it "hey, right there, he's grabbing your front hand, and he's going through this winding motion to strike your neck with the other hand. Why didn't you just punch him with your free hand, you had all this time! And why did you fall before his striking hand reach you, and falling forward sideways instead of backwards, what is going on, is this some type of trick?! Are you trying to humor him?"

Strider has to explain to him "the hand that's grabbing mine, I felt like his entire weight is on it, I was losing balance. It may be a long time in real time, by when you're losing balance, you get really tense, you're not aware of time, you're only thinking of recovering. And the reason I fall is not he has some invisible force coming out of his striking hand, but because his two hands are perfectly connected, the downward force of the striking hand is transmitted completely to the hand holding mine. So before that striking hand reached me, that force (unseen in the other hand) already threw me down..."

You can see how anyone who had felt good Tongbei or Taiji can easily understand what is going on here, but if you haven't, how could you know? This is why you never seen external martial art people faking Ling Kong Jin (the above example is not Ling Kong Jin). Only when someone in a group, someone who is a real internal arts master and done this regularly, do his students even know this kind of thing is even possible. So that they would try to replicate it in their own practice. Of course if you don't have the skill, it's just mutual deception. What you have left is empty external movement which, without the necessary internal force (in example above), couldn't possibly produce the strange effects that baffles non-practitioners. Obviously if that's all Ueshiba had, Aikido wouldn't be famous in the first place. That kind of fake skill even an untrained person can defeat.

'Mutual Deception' is not two people working in cahoots or student and a trusted student conspiring to fool or trick others. (Although some charlatans are only demonstrating on their trusted stooges.) It's more subtle. It could be two complete strangers, who've practiced Taijiquan for dozens of years and think they should be able to do what they saw WPS do, and what they've read about how Taijiquan should be. But if the skills aren't in the body then they just say what they think the other person would want to hear, or react in a way that doesn't betray their own ignorance or lack of experience, which in turn isn't good for the teacher because he gets deceived about his level of skill.

It's kind of like when you're first dating and kissing girls, and a girl asks you afterwards if you think she's a good kisser. If she's a horrible kisser then you might say something like "Ah could be better.", but she'll then just say "How do you know? What if you're not a good kisser to be judging me?", and you aren't really sure if you're all that good, so that would just leave lingering doubts about your own competency in your mind. So instead of being called out on your own lack of experience you tell a white lie, and say she's a great kisser. But maybe 12 years later, after her husband tells her she's not, and you get an angry call from her asking why you didn't tell her the truth since you were her first kiss, and she's been embarrassed and feels regret about how years of her life may have been different.

Mutual Deception is a subtle and insidious error as it can just continue to build up over the years, and coupled with the fact that these skills aren't being tested in fights, it can become a lifelong mistake.


I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. It's not for me to judge. I wrote that "Windwalker was delusional" in the other thread, not because of what he believes in or his ability to seek out and practice Taijiquan, but because if anyone disagrees, even slightly, with what he posts, then they "just don't have the experience". So I think he is delusional about the experiences of the other members of RSF, some of whom have 40+ years of learning various IMAs and they typically only suffer one insult before they stop responding, but most them are just lurkers and figure out who to share information with and communicate via PMs.

But to be fair to newcomers, everyone had pretty much learned who is who back in the days of EF. So it is difficult to figure out nowadays.


.

[windwalker]

So I think he is delusional about the experiences of the other members of RSF, some of whom have 40+ years of learning various IMAs and they typically only suffer one insult before they stop responding, but most them are just lurkers and figure out who to share information with and communicate via PMs.

But to be fair to newcomers, everyone had pretty much learned who is who back in the days of EF. So it is difficult to figure out nowadays.

gotta love it, so what 40+ yrs,,,many can make that claim as I can also.

Mutual Deception is a subtle and insidious error as it can just continue to build up over the years, and coupled with the fact that these skills aren't being tested in fights, it can become a lifelong mistake.

talking of fighting after writing about "yi" and " 5 shens" so you've used your "yi" and "5 shens" in fighting lately?
of even in just competition?

it was already pointed out in other threads that your writing does not equate with others experiences, which would tend to indicate
either you did not have them or your coming from a different perspective.
strange as it may seem, I had hoped that in the many things you've written about which tended to support my own understandings
you would have helped to clarify or support, instead its this.

the skill sets are tested each and every time a person interacts with another person weather in a training environment or not.

Taijiquan, but because if anyone disagrees, even slightly, with what he posts, then they "just don't have the experience".

In none of my post do I call anyone a name, nor talk of their teacher's nor of them directly, not as you have here.
I as others only share experiences or point out inconsistencies in what some write.
you have written about many things that have yet to be proven
by western science and apparently expect others to accept your verbiage with out question?

who is delusional?

as far as other members on RSF, some have met with me, both here and in China
they get it.

So I think he is delusional about the experiences of the other members of RSF,

actually I am quite familiar with their experiences having shared in many of them in my own path starting in the early 70s.
which is why I respect them but do not understand why they tend to mock others instead of explaining or offering a different perspective
based on their own work or experiences.

even in this thread, it starts by a kind of prove it, with out even understanding any of the processes by which
it is said to work, followed by I might have had an experience but it wasn't like that or as you are attempting to
do casting doubt on another persons experience.