I think I solved taiji.

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:33 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:Well you can shift through the mingmen from one side to the other, or from back to front. Then you can control the overall distribution of potential and actual kinetic energy by managing the shape, tensegrity, and spatial relationship of your body. Switching channels is a way to steal the advantage without revealing your intent or center.
Jess

Have you tested this theory in any of your wrestling match? What's your success-failure ratio?
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:06 pm

Oh yeah, just last night. I'm not measuring everything or recording stats. Just doing my thing, but thinking about this seens to help me win, anecdotally.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby amor on Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:28 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:
So if we can stay relaxed under pressure, and take force inside ourselves in a consciously directed pattern, we can give them some energy in our legs to hit. So they dove deep into your body and hit the leg. Well you can shift through the mingmen from one side to the other, or from back to front. Then you can control the overall distribution of potential and actual kinetic energy by managing the shape, tensegrity, and spatial relationship of your body. Switching channels is a way to steal the advantage without revealing your intent or center.
Jess


Good post Jess. Just wondering how you consciously try to direct the force/energy/intent. For example if your in a left leg forward stance, right leg back, weight all on the left. Do you feel the force coming in through the inside of the arms down the front where it pools in the abdomen. Do you then subtly shift the left side side forward so the force transfers into your back right foot. Then when your ready to push them away you use fingers of the left hand to push them away. Return of force from the back foot is done when by having the intention to move the core so the energy goes up the inside of the right leg and out through the back of the left side where it exits out of the fingers. Something like this or different t?
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:58 pm

At first I did it by using muscle contraction, then after a while the muscle contraction wasn't necessary, just the conscious awareness of the pathway. This is why you have to be sensitive.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:00 pm

You can alson let them hit the ground, but then they tend to back off or change because there is no carrot to go for.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby sinkpoint on Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:40 pm

It's good that you've got a physical theory that can 1) with a simple model that your mind can readily rasp and change and 2) works in 3D space rather than 2D, so it can unify a lot of movements and be applicable in a wide range of situations.

However be aware that the body is ultimately not a solid lens, and does not only filter movements through a plannar surface. If you only stick to this theory, you are discounting a lot of other things as well.

Just saying.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:42 am

Um, this is only part of the theory really, but it's the part that created the breakthrough for me. The idea that through the liquid crystal matrix of the body and it's tensegrity unity you can tune your shape and energy distribution based on patterned responses to pressure communicated through the matrix at speeds faster than neural transmission, and therefore by keeping a relaxed and balanced tensegrity, respond more quickly and efficiently to changing circumstances and pressures is nothing new for me. That was a given and well understood. It's the idea, that you can use the whole shape of the body in response to the potential or actual kinetic energy of the other to interfere with it in various ways, much in the same way a lens can focus, move, or diffuse light was a major breakthrough. The body can distribute stress according to varying patterns allowed by the tensegrity unit that it is. The key to internal power is understanding and practicing managing these patterns in a strategic way that is not easily ascertainable by the onlooker or even one who feels it usually. It is only with a synergy of deep awareness of proprioception, tactile responsiveness, and kinesiology coupled with tactical martial knowledge and a body mind integration that is trained to a sophisticated level, that the idea of using the body and mind like a big lense, or a big web becomes useful. That is what I got out of taiji, and it helped me to see what I was missing from my understanding of ima in general. I'm sure there are still things I haven't figured out, but what I've written here and explained is just a peephole into what's in my mind and body.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:19 am

There's been a surge of internal stuff going on, and I want to bring the discussion about what is different about my view, and probably others as well, on internal methods here. So I thought I'd go ahead and explain another layer of the internal methods I am training. This stuff is my own work, but does come by way of Wu style and Yang style taiji.

So in the internal arts there tends to be a clear separation of weight. So the ideas everything is clearly on one side, then the other right? The thing is that this is not just the weight, but the intent. It needs to fill the supporting leg and empty the other, but also the upper body as well. The low hand is the full one in San ti and circle walking also. So if you think about getting everything over to one side or the other, clearly, then you designate a center for yourself. It's important that you consciously designate it or it will be random and unknown mostly. So if you start with right and left as in walking, then you can get an idea how to separate the energy and move it inside of you. The hips and the waist guide it, and you can steer it like a rudder on a sailboat. So if you put your focus on a point of contact and receive force into one side only through that point they get the feeling that they are hitting something solid. The thing is that you are not resisting the force at all, you are guiding it into you, essentially taking it from them, without giving them anything to work with. Like your whole body is a catcher's mitt. So when you feel the persons center and you know where it is, and where their line of intent is you can do many different things with that information. You can empty the side they were hitting and hit their exposed center from the other side so that essentially all of their power is somewhere where nothing is really happening that is useful to them any more, and they have nothing to defend with. So left and right is the first stage. Think grasp the birds tail, IMO the most important part of taiji, btw. Front leg, back leg, palm up, palm down, inside arm, outside arm, etc. Yin and yang constantly transforming into one another right? Spc and Wu Xing do the same thing. So so far what I have figured out from my own experiments and what I've learned from taiji folks, is that there are pairs that switch all over the body. Left+right, front+back, high+low, inside+outside. These are the main ones, as demonstrated by the three anatomical planes plus inside and out. Then you get into the extremeties, so the thumb, and the fingers have separate lines, so two lines in each arm, so you can get in by finding the full channel and going up the empty, so your power doesn't crash with theirs, but takes another pathway to the center. The legs have more going on. Mostly though it's seems best at first not to think too deeply about the legs, but you have to be able to go from front and back of the leg and inside and out for basics. There is open close of the hips and flex and extend the spine at all the joints.

As far as energy is concerned there is recieving or magnetic energy, and there is emitting or electric energy as Mr. Rasmus says. Yin and Yang as Chinese say. So if you have all your weight on one side but the connection is not clear in the waist you can be double weighted on one foot. Because there can be energy moving around in the unstable Dan tian that hasn't been stilled enough to control your balance. This is where we all start I think. So if you can first get all,your weight stably one one side, and then put everything in your intent over to that side then you have something to work with, called a center. Then you can switch it around. That is the basic level.

Beyond basic, there is then dissolving the energy you recieve so it just hits you with no power. It's like there is no wind in the sails and the power just hits the floor. This is done by knowing the others center and having it before contact begins. You sense the direction of intent visually and know the center as it is revealed by their movement. So when the power comes in you already emptied the side they want to hit and you are ready to hit from the other one. So you don't even worry about the power coming in you just go through the empty meridian to hit the center before they even get to contact. This brings in to play the theory of orbits in internal mechanics.

Each orbit is a circuit, and for a technique to be delivered in an internal manner, the circuit has to be closed. In the case of many techniques involving only one contact point it's the mind that completes the circuit. This is highly counterintuitive and difficult for many people to understand and is one of the big places where internal and external depart, and where understanding, teaching, discussing etc becomes harder. The mind has to not only permeate the inside of the body, but the empty space around it. You lead the power into the empty spaces at first, so you can be sure it doesn't hit you. Then later you start to take it inside you and move it. Then you learn to put it into the ground, or just not accept it so the force just returns to the other and they push themselves out. This is done by knowing which meridians are active and which are passive, and only engaging the passive ones when the opposite is active. Otherwise the passive ones are able to be used to take your energy while the opposite but also passive meridian can be activated freely to attack the center. This is why we stay relaxed. So we can hide the center as well as possible and move it without the movement being easy to follow visually or through tactile senses. It's tension that tells you what meridians are active and what's coming from a person. It's relaxation that allows the power to flow smoothly from the center like a machine. Machines don't have eccentric contractions of antagonist servos or motors that are proprioceptively programmed to protect their joints from hyper extension, and relaxed movement allows you to make the power clear in one direction, with out needing to put the brakes on it with the antagonists and holding back the power, essentially crashing with your own energy. So don't crash, but instead know the other and take the easy road. This is the essence of internal arts as I see it. It's not revolutionary, and it jives with the classics apparently. But ask yourself if this sounds like what you are doing? Are you distributing your qi consciously and moving it with the mind? Are you able to receive energy and not resist? Do you know how to create a defined center and how to move it? Can you take power to a plane, a line, or a point? Can you put a person on that line or that point? That is how I do internal. I use my body and mind like a lense to manipulate the energy of the other, and to focus my own energy when I wish to attack. If you think five elements, then you see easily the planes of attack in pi quan. Zuan is planar and linear combined, one in each hand. Beng is on a point but off the line of power of the other, next to it. Pao is planar like a shield combined with linear like a sword stabbing. Heng is planar, linear, and pointed depending on usage and which part you look at. Now pi can be done like beng, so it goes to a point, and beng can be done like pao, so it's on a line, but essentially that's the breakdown of Wu Xing Jing from an anatomical perspective of movement. So if you think about the focus of beng quan to a point, and then think about how you can put that point instead of in front of you, under a persons feet, then you start to see how they can end up trying to move themselves, when they meant to move you, or trying to hit you but falling as soon as they emit power.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:26 pm

I hate to be a grump to you twice in one day Jess, but the ever expanding bush of grey hair on my head makes me feel justified in some way.

The energy anatomy is a general concept. Ideas like ming men, dantian, jingluo and the like are quite complex and somewhat ephemeral in nature.

When we talk about mingmen for instance, it is important to have some general defenition of what a ming men actually is.
Different people think about this differently, but basically here are two divergent thoughts on ming men:
TCM: The ming men is an energy centre analoguous to dantian. It essentially regulates jing and works in harmony with dantian, kidneys and the other central and subsiduary organs in cooperation with blood and breath. It is basically localed in the pelvic region of the body toward the kidneys, but it is not a small area, or a regulated area. It can be bigger or smaller depending on energy flow. if you run out of jing in the ming men, you perish.
From a Daoist perspective:
ming men is usually called qixue (qi cave) and is considered to be under the dantian. It is a large area in the pelvic floor where qi gathers before it is circled up the weilu and other gates in the back and to the head.
Daoists believe that using the ming men as a tool for meditation was a way to refine jing into qi, and emptiness into energy as a first step in developing and freeing the spiritual energy.

What you are talking about, in terms of geographical regions of the body would be perhaps better explained through accupuncture points (the other qixue. sorry my chinese is lazy today). So if you have a specirfic accupuncture point which you are focusing on, then I could understand your analysis- but if you are focusing on something as big and general as ming men- you will need to tailor your practice differently.

exactness is very important at the early stages of training- but eventually, the practice should develop into something based on feeling, experience, and awareness.
If you want to practice the ming men well, you will need to find a teacher who is skilled in either TCM or meditation to guide you through the appropriate steps to build a strong energy body.
The jingluo and dantian are exactly the same.
These things as purely physical concepts are very, very flimsy.
You would probably get more practical benefit from doing squats well.
If you actually learn the theory correctly though, and don't convolute it too much with Western science knowledge at the start (wait a few years till you know what you are supposed to be feeling), then you might actually get some real benefit.

turn of grumpy now.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:14 pm

Hey I appreciate your contribution, but it sounds like you and I are not really on the same wavelength in this conversation. I am not talking about these points because they are not a part of my understanding of the myofascial meridians of the body, which comes from Thomas Myers Anatomy Trains and my medical anatomy classes. Also I've been training IMA since 2002 so I feel comfortable with playing with various ideas. As for squats, I do them every day and have for years. Gotta have strong legs and low back. That's for sure. But yeah, your advice seemed better suited to a newbie, so it seems like maybe you are confused about where I am in my journey. Basically after doing lots of bagua and xingyi and a little taiji for about ten years under Luo Dexiu's line, I still felt like I didn't get "internal" so I sought it out specifically and found it. Now I've started over and am making huge progress in the last few months. I'm not sure what kind of "internal" work you've been doing, so its hard to know if your advice applies to my situation. I am aware of your teacher in Canada, but not whatever ekse you've been doing. I would definetly say that what I'm doing isn't what he was doinh in the videos I've seen. My stuff is more like what you see in certain Wu style and Yang lineages, like Wang Peisheng, Shi Chongying, Wang Jie, Xie Bingcan etc...
Jess
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby I-mon on Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:51 pm

Jess, with your particular blend of experience, dedication, passion and exploratory mindset, you have so much to contribute and it's great that you're here. Your writing style though is still quite confusing, and I for one will often just look at a massive paragraph like the one in your post above and simply leave it for another time. I've had the same problem with my own writing, especially when I get super excited, and I'm sure lots of others have too. It's worth going back and editing or completely re-writing those posts, if they really do contain valuable information and genuine inspired ideas which you want to share.

Cheers mate,

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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:26 pm

That's what happens when I write at 3am. I'll try to iron it out a bit when I get some time.
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:37 pm

Being able to wire the ability to follow different shapes into your nervous system is at the heart of it. That's why for the taiji symbol, five elements, and bagua. They're how you wire the lowest common spatial denominators into your brain. Once those concepts are mastered you can move and feel in a very modular fashion. I like to use the analogy of a dimmer switch. You just change and adapt to "energy" in a direct matching frequency/rhythm

Easier said than done of course. I've been wracking my brain for something I read about years ago in tai chi magazine about this sought after "secret of infinite/endless..something? Circles." I can't remember who it was about but it was some old taiji luminary maybe Li Rui Dong? Anyway, I remember have a discussion with Lazyboxer maybe? (my memory for these things is horrible with so many board discussions over the years) anyway I believe he likened it for me to a mobius strip which was a big help to me in understanding it. Of course you have to have the sensitivity in your body to feel and do these things.

I'll end my babbling on the subject with a nice apropos article:

http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/RandomCircles_in_TJQ/RandomCircles_1.html

Best,

S
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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:43 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:That's what happens when I write at 3am. I'll try to iron it out a bit when I get some time.
Jess



I was able to follow it for the most part.

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Re: I think I solved taiji.

Postby everything on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:27 pm

rambling but great post. I did some ph and some (maybe) of what you're talking about went sort of like this. at the time I was playing with a horizontal circle, arms held out. probably wasn't that aware of weight distribution or center (in a mechanical sense). anyway, receiving energy on the right arm would cause my left arm to push on my partner so that in effect he was pushing himself and my arm shape was just some kind of shape so he could push himself. in solo training at the time I would try to feel energy basically instantly travel from one hand to the other and around this horizontal circle. didn't necessarily feel that in ph, just this odd sensation that his push pushed him, I didn't do anything. I don't remember what was happening with legs (and probably not following you on the leg portions) and we were just doing really light push hands, much lighter than a light judo randori kind of session but much more interesting. ... sort of similar to what you're on to?
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