Grab

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Grab

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:15 pm

When my right hand grab on your right wrist. I have a "hook" on you but you don't have a hook on me. I can pull you into my punch. If you try to do the same, I can let go my grip. That's my advantage. When you have a fish on your fishing hook, whether you want to let that fist go (by cutting the fishing line) is up to you. It's not up to the fish.

Your thought?

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby leftwose on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:47 pm

Too simplistic. What you have described is a potential outcome based on things going as you expect.The potentiality chain you describe is based on me resisting (even if slight) in order to allow your tactic to actualize.

What if you grab my right wrist and pull me across into your punch. I react by letting you pull my right arm while sinking into my hips. Thus, you have pulled my right arm without actually moving me. When your left fist comes in I have my left free to counter (liu).
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Re: Grab

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 pm

having trained with the teacher in the clip, there is no time to do anything else.
"JW" mentions running someone down, this is also part of the grabbing routine.
its pretty quick when done by a skilled practitioner.

we dont need no "Mexican jumping beans" here 8-)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:00 pm

leftwose wrote:What if you grab my right wrist and pull me across into your punch. I react by letting you pull my right arm while sinking into my hips. Thus, you have pulled my right arm without actually moving me.

If I pull you, I don't want to move you. I want to move myself. I just want to borrow the "counter force". Whether I can pull you into me, or I can let the counter force to pull me into you. It won't make difference. When you sinks your hips, you will have strong rooting. It will help me to pull myself into you much easier. It's like when you climb mountain, you want to grab on a strong tree branch. You don't want to grab on a weak tree branch.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:12 pm

windwalker wrote:having trained with the teacher in the clip, there is no time to do anything else.

Brendan Lai was very fast. When he was in Austin, he said that his leading right hand could touch my back left shoulder before my leading right hand could block it. He tried and failed. He said, "John, you are very fast!" Adam Hsu was there as eye witness. I have not met anybody as fast as Brendan after that.

Of course he had told me what he was going to do. I could predict his arm's moving path. If he attacked my by surprise, would I be fast enough to react to it? I truly don't know.
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Re: Grab

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:37 pm

he was pretty quick.
also liked to demo his skill sets in real time against anything.

edited: too off topic

When my right hand grab on your right wrist. I have a "hook" on you but you don't have a hook on me. I can pull you into my punch. If you try to do the same, I can let go my grip. That's my advantage. When you have a fish on your fishing hook, whether you want to let that fist go (by cutting the fishing line) is up to you. It's not up to the fish.

styles like eagle claw, mantis,and others specialize in grabbing. in your training you also mention developing the grip,
if one dosent know how or cant empty the contact point, with the styles mentioned its very difficult once a grip is applied.

my thought and what I teach is to be empty at the point of contact, in this way it makes it more difficult if not impossible for the person grabbing to do anything as there is nothing for them
to work with. Of course as in all things it depends on ones level vs, the level of the one using the grab.
Have always found CMA so interesting in the many approaches used developed to a high degree
by some very dedicated practitioners.

Though, I wouldn't call this "work against grabs". This is preventing someone to grab, but there's no physical grabbing involved, only the intention there of. I would like to see Systema countering Mr Wang's "monster grips" with softness. Not work against the intention, but against the physical grab ... That would be interesting...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21707

from another thread,

indeed it kind of depends on how the grab is done, and at what level one is able to engage it.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:24 pm

This may be true - When he grabs your wrist, you both become one-armed men.

This is also true - He can become 2 arms man fast than you can.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby XiaoXiong on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:08 am

I think there is a lot that can happen. Grabbing is a commitment. The empty arm is very useful, but I prefer to immediately apply chin na when grabbed. I go for an arm joint or the neck pretty much as soon as I can. The intent keeps me centered on attacking while I'm defending.
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Re: Grab

Postby Alexatron on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:34 am

Why bother grabbing? If you've got enough advantage to grab a wrist why not just go straight for the strike? Maybe attack the wrist as a diversion if you feel the need but grabbing seems a bit risky IMHO.
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Re: Grab

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:56 am

As in most things, it depnds.

Two gung Fu expressions come to mind:

1. "If my opponent grabs me, I do not need to grab him"

2. "Once we have fists what need we anything else?"

As for 1. Obviously borrowing the opponent's grip on us and using it to our advantage requires skill and timing, the warning given, is that should one grip, one has to release the grip prior to forming a fist, prior to punching him.

As for 2. It really means to follow my last explanation, as in seize the opponent with forearms, or entangle him, or wrap him, but leave the fists ready to strike.

It seeks to quicken our responses and prevent fixation.

However say you wanted to restrain and not injure someone and a grip possibility existed? it would seem foolish to abandon such.

So like everything gung Fu - it depends, but it is very useful to understand such sayings and practice and be familiar with their application.

Know the potential and limits and working with them, isn't that the principle?
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Re: Grab

Postby Bob on Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:47 am

The difficulty in making inferences about grabbing in praying mantis is often the techniques involve employing in a hidden kick/inside shin/ankle/groin/knee/trip or two.

While it is useful to train many of the praying mantis techniques/apps in isolated 3/5 combinations, the combination options grab, kick, poke, scrape, trip, throw for a mantis player are multiple. (as evidenced in the second clip provided by Windwalker) It is hard to predict where a good mantis player is going after that grab.
Last edited by Bob on Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby AllanF on Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:03 am

As was said...to simplistic!

You grab me; you grab nothing! You grab me you give me your force (i borrow your force). You hook me i use your hook and spiral it back to you. You pull me into your punch i am relaxed so you have nothing to pull and i swot you hand away.

clip for illustration purposes! (clip shows both left hand grabbing right hand and right hand grabbing right hand)

Last edited by AllanF on Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:14 am

One day he was challenged by a strong martial artist. When the challenger grasped his wrist and would not let him escape, Yang, Ban-hou used his jin to bounce the challenger away and defeat him. He was so proud that he went home and told his father. Instead of praise, his father laughed at him because his sleeve was torn - See more at: http://ymaa.com/articles/history-of-yan ... mpioR.dpuf

think I read somewhere that the martial artist was an eagle claw stylist.

the specialized skill like many other CMA skills are trained to a very high level, when people talk of of grabbing
its not like being grabbed by a common person.
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Re: Grab

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:23 am

XiaoXiong wrote:I think there is a lot that can happen. Grabbing is a commitment. The empty arm is very useful, but I prefer to immediately apply chin na when grabbed. I go for an arm joint or the neck pretty much as soon as I can. The intent keeps me centered on attacking while I'm defending.
Jess


if the "empty" is done correctly the one grabbing has to immediately start dealing with their own loss of balance.
which results in a lot of the "Mexican jumping bean" reactions that people see in some demos.
anything can be done after that. 8-)

now where is that clip? ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grab

Postby shawnsegler on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:44 am

"Mexican jumping bean"


I believe I've already copyrighted that as "JUADT" tm. :)

S
Last edited by shawnsegler on Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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