Grab

[Steve James]

Like Niall said, it depends. I'd argue that it depends on the grabber and the grabbee. It also relates to the thread on "fighting strategy." I.e., one strategy might be allow the person to grab. There are many examples of people demonstrating self-defense against a grabbed wrist. In fact, is there anyone here who hasn't seen them or demonstrated them? Usually, though, the criticism is that --just like the held out straight punch-- people don't usually attack that simply, double-handed grabs especially.

Afa the grab/punch combo, one tcc strategy was to let him take the wrist and give him the elbow for change. But, again, it depends.

[palmslam]

This technique is from Bung Bo, The best defense here is step off-line. The grab is just done for split second. Knee is coming in etc.

[Alexatron]

You grab. Me easily defeat with mysterious taiiji power! See video for edification!

[johnwang]

Why bother grabbing? If you've got enough advantage to grab a wrist why not just go straight for the strike? Maybe attack the wrist as a diversion if you feel the need but grabbing seems a bit risky IMHO.

If you attack without grabbing, your opponent moves back, your attack will fail. If you grab and attack, when your opponent moves back, he will pull your body with him. This is the "hook" principle.

[XiaoXiong]

I think there is a lot that can happen. Grabbing is a commitment. The empty arm is very useful, but I prefer to immediately apply chin na when grabbed. I go for an arm joint or the neck pretty much as soon as I can. The intent keeps me centered on attacking while I'm defending.
Jess

if the "empty" is done correctly the one grabbing has to immediately start dealing with their own loss of balance.
which results in a lot of the "Mexican jumping bean" reactions that people see in some demos.
anything can be done after that.

now where is that clip?

Yes, I am actually doing this kind of work with emptiness, I'm just talking about different things sometimes, because I feel like the empty concept and conversation is not working for the majority if the forum, and it's sometimes useful to talk about things more familiar to the crowd.
Jess

[johnwang]

I feel like the empty concept and conversation is not working for the majority if the forum, and it's sometimes useful to talk about things more familiar to the crowd.
Jess

It depends on which example that you may use to explain your "emptiness".

Of you try to

- grab my wrist, I move my arm out of your way, you will grab on nothing.
- under hook my arm, I raise my arm straight up, you will hook on nothing.
- over hook my arm, I rotate my arm the same direction as your arm move, you will hook on nothing.
- lock my head, I move my head under your arm, you will lock on nothing.
- punch me, I spin my body out of your way, you will punch on nothing.
- ...

The "emptiness" is easy understood by simple and concrete examples such as to move your entire body (or just the body part) to be out of your opponent's moving path, and let your opponent just to deal with the thin air.

[johnwang]

if the "empty" is done correctly the one grabbing has to immediately start dealing with their own loss of balance.

The grab is a non-committed move that if you get it, it's fine, if you don't get it, it's fine too. It should not affect your own balance.

we dont need no "Mexican jumping beans" here

Even if you don't want to put up that clip, others will.

[Alexatron]

Why bother grabbing? If you've got enough advantage to grab a wrist why not just go straight for the strike? Maybe attack the wrist as a diversion if you feel the need but grabbing seems a bit risky IMHO.

If you attack without grabbing, your opponent moves back, your attack will fail. If you grab and attack, when your opponent moves back, he will pull your body with him. This is the "hook" principle.

So you're assuming your opponent is too fast to hit with a straight strike but too slow to react to a grab and then strike? So are we assuming your opponent has his arm hanging out some distance from his body? I.e. significantly further away than possible striking targest? If you're suggesting they can pull back out of range from a strike surely they can just as easily pull back their arm when the grab comes out?
And how about a kick as a counter to the grab? If you've grabbed my arm then I'm going to be plenty close enough for a snap kick to the groin or side of knee. I'd throw up my left hand as a feint whilst simultaneously kicking to groin or bladder. If we're talking a real fight then I'll most likely be wearing my shoes so will inflict some serious damage.
I've used the hook principal as a follow up to a block. Incoming punch or grab to lapel, inside block with hooking palm then dropping with 'anh' (sp?) but not used it to initiate an attack.
I can imagine scenarios where it could work but only very specific ones e.g. opponent has their guard well out from their body and they're not a MA.
From your perspective can you suggest a counter to someone trying the grab technique as you see it executed?

BTW great post - its interesting exploring this sort of stuff before it happens. Going to work through some scenarios tonight at training.

[johnwang]

So are we assuming your opponent has his arm hanging out some distance from his body? ... how about a kick as a counter to the grab?

I don't make that assumption. If

- you punch, your opponent blocks, or
- your opponent punches, you block,

your arm will contact with your opponent's arm. If you slide your hand along with his arm, you will get wrist grab. So the wrist grab is usually the result of "one punch, the other blocks".

I don't think kick can work well at that moment. When I pull you, my entire body weight will be on that contact point. Your body will be pulled forward and your body weight will be shifted on your leading leg. It's difficult to pick up your leading leg and kick at that moment.

[dspyrido]

What's wrong with just folding into an elbow with the wrist grab + pull? You use the attackers force to accelerate the elbow into the attacker, the attackers punch gets cramped by the rolling elbow/palm & the defender still has a hand to defend & attack. Not to mention the good old head butt going straight for the attackers face.

[johnwang]

What's wrong with just folding into an elbow with the wrist grab + pull? You use the attackers force to accelerate the elbow into the attacker, the attackers punch gets cramped by the rolling elbow/palm & the defender still has a hand to defend & attack. Not to mention the good old head butt going straight for the attackers face.

That's why after you have obtained your wrist control, you will need to get the elbow control afterward.

The praying mantis Gou Lu Cai Shou is

- wrist grip,
- elbow grip,
- pull, and
- punch.

So you only move in if your opponent's elbow has no threaten to you.

[dspyrido]

That's why after you have obtained your wrist control, you will need to get the elbow control afterward.

The praying mantis Gou Lu Cai Shou is

- wrist grip,
- elbow grip,
- pull, and
- punch.

So you only move in if your opponent's elbow has no threaten to you.

Ok - it's a cross body arm drag. So why not keep moving & folding in and hit with a shoulder &/or headbutt? If they are not in close enough range then keep stepping forward and kick and knee. Of if the attacker is not committed to the arm drag & loosens up then draw the sword (reverse elbow).

Plus also the defender has a hand free that can cover part of the head and face against the attacking punch.

[XiaoXiong]

I feel like the empty concept and conversation is not working for the majority if the forum, and it's sometimes useful to talk about things more familiar to the crowd.
Jess

It depends on which example that you may use to explain your "emptiness".

Of you try to

- grab my wrist, I move my arm out of your way, you will grab on nothing.
- under hook my arm, I raise my arm straight up, you will hook on nothing.
- over hook my arm, I rotate my arm the same direction as your arm move, you will hook on nothing.
- lock my head, I move my head under your arm, you will lock on nothing.
- punch me, I spin my body out of your way, you will punch on nothing.
- ...

The "emptiness" is easy understood by simple and concrete examples such as to move your entire body (or just the body part) to be out of your opponent's moving path, and let your opponent just to deal with the thin air.

The emptiness I'm talking about is something that starts with a different strategy. The strategy is to invite them to put force on you. The attitude is one of inviting the force. It's as if the whole body is like a catcher's hand, just ready to recieve that force without resisting it. The catcher keeps his composure by absorbing the energy into relaxed muscles and frames that don't conduct the kinetic energy through to the center as an interfering pattern because the potential energy of resistance isn't there to interfere with the incoming energy. So the energy can be recieved into these relaxed tissues and stored, dispersed, transformed or released through conscious manipulation of the tensegrity unit, and it's potential or actual kinetic energy. Potential energy is what people seem to mean by "it". It can be filled up, emptied, moved, stored, and of course released. The feeling of incorporating weapons work with this kind of mental operating system of internal methodology of potential energy allows you to begin to put that potential energy outside your body. Once you understand the energy through the weapon, then your mind can take the place of the weapon. That is how a reed is used to defeat a steel sword. That is how I see it. It's all physics and energy in the context of human physical altercation, and all of its many aspects. That is the fruit of my meditation on internal power for the day.
Jess

[Ian]

I think some of you are underestimating the power of a simple, committed grab. 

I've felt very strong grabs from iliqchuan, ziranmen, judo etc.

The principles are:
-You control your opponent's center
-You remove one of your opponents limbs from the game, so they can't attack or counter

Example 1:
Trapping your opponent's arm into his groin (drop your bodyweight on it).

Example 2:


If you get trapped like this, you're not hitting anything.

------------------------------------

It's too simplistic.

It's easier to make simple moves effective. 

[WongYing]

Windwalker, yes your correct about the exchange with Yang Ban Hou, it was an eagle claw stylist, following that exchange it is why certain people in our line of eagle claw went on to learn and integrate methods of Yang Tai Chi into the eagle clw system