bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:02 am

There is the 12 primary organ meridians that energy moves, or passes through, over a 24 hour time period, which are just called 經 Jing, which everyone knows about;

and then the 8 extraordinary meridians called 脈 Mai, which act like energy reservoirs in the body;

and these two are collectively called 經脈 Jing [&] Mai and these are the standard meridians and points that are illustrated and acupuncturists use.

But then there are also 15 smaller channels called 絡脈 Luo Mai, which then branch off into smaller and even smaller channels (called child, grandchild, then, like a family, 2nd cousins, or twice-removed, etc.) which eventually branch into millions of strands that form a web or net called the 絡 Luo. These 15 channels are deeper down and are closer to the circulatory and lymphatic systems.
So sham-acupuncture can actually stimulate the movement of qi and blood, by inadvertently bringing it to a needle that is stuck anywhere in the body, but there's also the potential to nick a blood vessel and cause a bruise, or worse to hit a nerve.

In the Internal Martial Arts we're primarily concerned with building up our 絡脈 Luo Mai and increasing our overall 絡 Luo (network), which can be seen, in the positive, as increased circulation and opened micro-capillaries flowing to the palms of the hands, and increased fluid joint movement and limberness;
and felt, in the negative, as a deep muscle cramp, or tendon/ ligament injury.

Also, in the IMAs, we are concerned with the 8 筋脈 Jinmai (tendon, fascia meridians), which kind of follow the 8 extraordinary meridians that lie above these anatomical, physical tendon and myo-fascial lines, so they share the same names. These all pass through or are connected to the 'Dai Jinmai' (belt tendon meridian) which is also just the power of the waist (yao), or the Lower Dantian.


cdobe wrote:These structures are indeed very interesting. However, there is no indication, that they have anything to do with the meridians of TCM. I have read all of the available research, which isn't that much at this point, and it is already very clear, that the meridians and the Bonghan ducts or primo-vascular system do not match. The system follows blood and lymphatic vessels and is verified in some internal organs and interestingly in tumors. It has not been verified to exist in the skin, where most of the ordinary 12 meridians are supposed to be located. The system has so-called primo-nodes which have been suggested to be acupuncture points. And while you are able to find some of these nodes near places where acupuncture points are supposed to be, there are many more nodes in between, that are not known by acupuncture and TCM in general. Also, if you look at the tip size of the finest needles and compare them to the size of the nodes it is pretty improbable, that any acupuncturist would be able to hit these small structures.

I wonder if the primo-vascular system is these 15 smaller, deeper channels of the 絡脈 Luo Mai?



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Last edited by D_Glenn on Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby everything on Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:55 pm

Is there an in-print, English language book or books you'd recommend on the meridian and TCM topic?
Last edited by everything on Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby MiaoZhen on Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:45 am

D_Glenn wrote:Also, in the IMAs, we are concerned with the 8 筋脈 Jinmai (tendon, fascia meridians), which kind of follow the 8 extraordinary meridians that lie above these anatomical, physical tendon and myo-fascial lines, so they share the same names. These all pass through or are connected to the 'Dai Jinmai' (belt tendon meridian) which is also just the power of the waist (yao), or the Lower Dantian. .


Perhaps in some IMA traditions there is a link between the sinew channels (jing jin 經筋) and the 8 extraordinary vessels, but in the medical classics the sinew channels are linked with the 12 primary channels and thus there are 12 of them. The original source text for this is the 13th chapter of the Ling Shu (the title of the chapter is also just "Jing Jin" 經筋). The IMAs and the inner alchemy traditions I practice talk about these 12 sinew channels as well. I would be curious to read a text though that links the sinews to the 8EV - is there a classic reference to this in one of the IMA traditions?

There are many good books on channel theory printed in English. One very good one that I recommend to my students is Navigating the Channels of TCM by Ni. Here's a link:

http://www.redwingbooks.com/sku/NavChaTraChiMed

The book is certainly geared towards acupuncture practitioners, although the channels pathway descriptions are very well done. It also includes all the secondary channel families.

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Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby everything on Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:09 pm

Thanks a lot. Getting more interested in qigong in detail.
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Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:44 pm

MiaoZhen wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Also, in the IMAs, we are concerned with the 8 筋脈 Jinmai (tendon, fascia meridians), which kind of follow the 8 extraordinary meridians that lie above these anatomical, physical tendon and myo-fascial lines, so they share the same names. These all pass through or are connected to the 'Dai Jinmai' (belt tendon meridian) which is also just the power of the waist (yao), or the Lower Dantian.


Perhaps in some IMA traditions there is a link between the sinew channels (jing jin 經筋) and the 8 extraordinary vessels, but in the medical classics the sinew channels are linked with the 12 primary channels and thus there are 12 of them. The original source text for this is the 13th chapter of the Ling Shu (the title of the chapter is also just "Jing Jin" 經筋). The IMAs and the inner alchemy traditions I practice talk about these 12 sinew channels as well. I would be curious to read a text though that links the sinews to the 8EV - is there a classic reference to this in one of the IMA traditions?

Henry

My bad. The 筋脈 Jinmai are named after the 12 meridians that overlie them, but the usage and whole body connections, in the IMA biomechanics, use the 8 extraordinary meridians to connect these tendon meridians and the waist/ dantian to the spine and the arms, and yin and yang meridians to connect arms to legs and the cross (x shape) body connection (opposite arm opposite foot).

The, sort of, tendon/fascia of the ren and du mai have importance in using 'bolang jin' and 'fanlang jin' (crashing/ surging wave & returning/ retreating wave, respectively) of the spinal column.


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Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bonghan channels (scientific proof of meridians)

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:31 pm

Sean wrote:No, they do not have to jump. They choose freely to jump.
Stop confounding everything.


They jump so they don't fall over backwards.
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