Headlock against MT Clinch

[Pipefighter,PhD]

A while back i was cross training at a local school and had a training partner with a very strong Thai clinch. Basically every response i made was only wasting my energy, and he was determined to end up with the clinch. I finally asked my teacher if he had an alternative response, or what he would do in that situation. He told me to use the headlock immediately, and showed me. It's like a "help me Jesus" feeling at that moment.
So i went back and used the headlock as a counter with complete success. Since then I basically use it all the time unless i am trying to practice other moves. So far i have not seen a good response to a headlock against a MT clinch. Does anybody have one?

[Ian]

Some ideas:

[D_Glenn]

..So i went back and used the headlock as a counter with complete success. Since then I basically use it all the time unless i am trying to practice other moves. So far i have not seen a good response to a headlock against a MT clinch. Does anybody have one?

You are talking about Shuai Jiao's headlock?

And I don't think many people really understand what it is. It's literally 'Head' 'Lock', as in the cranium part of the skull is held in a lock about even with the temples. If memory serves, I got to feel John Wang's headlock at a seminar and it feels like your head is caught in a vice, and by default he has neck control because you don't really want to move around too much, for fear of damaging your own neck.

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[Pipefighter,PhD]

Yeah! That headlock! But around the opponent's MT clinch, so his hand/glove is pinned to his own ear or neck and his elbow is trapped between the two chests. Once i felt it done to me i had real confidence it would work. It's a bad feeling.

Any counters or responses to that move?

[dspyrido]

What ruleset are you looking at? Some thoughts

- practise repeatedly slipping out - avoidance is better than the cure
- If the clinch is extended then the ribs are free as are groin, knes, shins and feet
- If the grip is loose then seize the hands and headbutt up
- If the clinch is close then push under the elbows and pull the head down to let the grip slide up - follow with double leg or waist clinch throw or leg picks or head strike to torso
- there are also chinna moves - if the elbows are down & youre not much shorter then pass one arm over the elbows and drop the elbow down (turn half the body) - you can then pin the elbows
- you can also play with back and torso control. Back is good if the clinch is close - effectively you push on the lower spine with a palm with a palm while pushing with the othe palm on the head or neck

Also keep in mind getting someone to carefully throw you around by the neck may be unpleasant but is also a great way to condition the neck and spine. Do it right and carefully and over time the neck becomes extremely difficult to choke or apply pain point control.

[vagabond]

any video of this headlock? i was picturing the schoolyard noogie move, sort of like a standing guillotine

[Pipefighter,PhD]

Here is a clip
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lIE7SWoyTEI

This move, if done with harsh power and speed has worked with great results. Any counter ideas?

[Ralteria]

My only thought would be to abandon the MT Clinch as soon as the headlock arm was being draped over, underhook(not a true underhook, more of a variant) and file the headlocking shoulder of the opponent with the arm parrallel to the headlocking arm to push the opponents shoulder over, while side stepping in the same direction of the headlocker. Then drop your weight while extending the underhooking arm over your opponents shoulder, press on that arm's forearm with the opposite hand using your neck as a fulcrum, lock out his elbow and keeping filing the shoulder over with your arm/shoulder. Then drop your opponents face into the floor.

The end product would be Taiji's Needle at Sea Bottom, with your opponent's headlocking arm wedged against your neck . You would need damn good listening skills for this and be ahead of your opponent's intent.

This video is approximately what I'm talking about (the mechanics of the lock are what I'm trying to get across and ignore everything but the shoulder lock). The differences lie in that the underhooking arm would extend much further past the opponent due to proximity (a la Needle at Sea Bottom) and you'd have to be waaay ahead of your opponents headlock so that you don't just, well, headlock yourself . Also, stepping up and into your opponent's headlock (making him float) would help immensely. It would also be rather difficult to pull off if you are much shorter than the guy trying to get the headlock on you.

[Pipefighter,PhD]

I' m going to try that today and share. I do understand what you are explaining. I actually use somthing similar against a low single and double leg attack, and against the Russian if my opponent leaves his head down. I dont know what to call it, but basically get your left wrist under the armpit, right hand push the head down, left hand lock on right wrist then twist to put him on his back, knee in the ribs.
That's kind of the mirror to what you are describing as the finish. So i do understand the mechanics of what you are saying.
I'll comment later on my thoughts once i drill it.
Thanks for the response

[Pipefighter,PhD]

After trying it a bit, it seems like this is pretty similar to what you are describing, just from a closer range.



The problem i found is that there is no time to pull that off from a clinch range against a headlock. The body mechanics, even if you go at slow speed, even if you know it's coming, just can't be fast enough to beat the head locking arm. Also, even if the guy throwing the headlock stops mid entry and gives you time to start working your arm, you are then fighting against his elbow to get in. And the leg block is coming while your working against the upper body. I couldn't make it work

[Ralteria]

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was talking about. I could get it to work slow and with compliance (using the distancing you had in the first vids), but the lead time isn't there when they are commited. The headlock seems to be very efficient.

[Dajenarit]

Did you see the headlock and fist party Rowdy Rousey gave Davis?

[Ian]

There are many clinch variations in muay thai, and each variation has many counters. 

I think this deserves careful study, rather than asking for one technique to counter one clinch.

That's where I'd start.

Edit - first clip, answer to your question by one of the best nak muay in the past few decades.

[Pipefighter,PhD]

That girl is a heart breaker!!!


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No one has said anything derogatory about the Nak Muy in the video response. This thread isnt about all the counters to a clinch or double neck tie, or about all the various ways to use a headlock and the counters to all of them. This thread is about the headlock around a clinch and responses to that specifically. That was not in your film.
Even the headlock Rousey is using isn't in the specific situation I'm talking about, but that is a great pic, great throw, great girl!

[vagabond]

the arm the attack with, your opposite arm leads with an elbow to the chest, stepping with the same foot and make as if you were touching your own ear with the other hand. that hand tries to catch the headlock, keep it from locking on. then you just clap your hands together and turn agains the direction of the lock, giving them a little yank downward to break their structure while you're at it