CMC Style, who stayed true to the form?

[windwalker]

reading some of the comments I feel its a bit unfair unless one has really taken the time to examine both styles.
I have

from my perspective they are quite different. As are some styles originating from different members of the yang family.
this is why imo its important to know or at least understand the history of what one practices.

In fact, Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to differentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father's style; and he made it clear that he wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father's style. These stylistic differences can be summarized by the difference in interpretation over the Chinese word "sung." To the Cheng Manching stylists this word has always contained the ideas of being sunken, relaxed and empty. Yang Zhenduo, however, emphasized the characteristics of being open, extended and full.

http://www.taichiandqigong.com/yang_compare.php
as noted, dont quite agree with the authors conclusions
to expect someone to reach an understanding by studying the "source" seems like confusion unless one was already well versed in what they where currently working on.

ZMC had other influences, what source would one study from?

"In the room was a table where they had eaten. The two men were on one side of the table pushing hands. On the other side of the table was a wall, which was not very thick and made of wood (something like plywood). At that time Zheng Manqing considered himself to be pretty good. While pushing with Zhang Qinlin, he was very intent on trying to push Zhang over. Zhang Laoshi was just deflecting right, deflecting left. He then made a Ji, and Zheng Manqing flew - over the table and into the wall, which almost fell over."

Pu bingru (who was laughing while telling the story) said that the impact left a hole in the wall, and Zheng Manqing, after crashing into the wall, slumped to the ground. Everyone ran over, picked him up while asking if he was okay. Zheng stood up (a little shaken but not hurt - the outcome was not what he had anticipated) then went to his knees and said to Zhang Laoshi, "You must take me as your student." Zhang replied, "I just came for dinner. You demonstrated your form, and I demonstrated my form. This is not something I had expected." He told Zheng, "At the moment I do not have any time, and I am only here temporarily. I live in Shanxi province right now. If you want me to be your teacher, you will have to send someone to get me."

http://aymta.org/home/journal/zqlpt4.html

the styles themselves are quite different, enough to merit its own distinction by those that followed his teachings.
Is CMC respected ? what ever one wants to say one only has to look at some of his students who themselves went out to
prove the style.

Notable students (in Taiwan:)
Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo
Liu Hsi-heng
Hsu I-chung
Dr Qi Jiang Tao
Robert W. Smith
T. T. Liang
William C. C. Chen
Huang Xingxian (黃性賢)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch'ing

one of his more noted students

Huang Xingxian (Huang Sheng-Shyan)

"Though they practice my (outer) methods,
not following my (inner) way they are not my students."

http://www.patrickkellytaiji.com/TEACHE ... gxian.html

On this site RSF many often talk of ZMQ, questioning his skill.
and yet, he had some very noted students who had practiced other MA prior to studying with him.

disclaimer: not affiliated with the style nor claim to be any representative of it, with the exception
that its was part of my own taiji path.

[johnwang]

This is the major issue that people in Taiwan had toward CMC's Taiji skill. If we look at Taiji "double pulling" in the following 2 clips, it's not hard to see that something is missing in CMC's move.

What's missing? Can you spot it? This concern had been discussed in Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting so many times.

Look at the

- tiger mouth, and
- Ying Yang vs. Ying Ying.

[lazyboxer]

This is the major issue that people in Taiwan had toward CMC's Taiji skill. If we look at Taiji "double pulling" in the following 2 clips, it's not hard to see that something is missing in CMC's move.

What's missing? Can you spot it? This concern had been discussed in Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting so many times.

John, there's so much missing I wouldn't know where to begin.

The same applies to most of CMC's entire 37 move form. When I first saw the old photos of Yang Chengfu's taiji in 1972 I got a shock. It seemed to me then that what Cheng was doing had little connection to what he had originally learned and I started to lose faith in his system.

I don't think much of his fajing displays either, which Huang Xingxian cultivated to better advantage, combining his White Crane skills with the painful and arduous training Cheng forced on him. He's the only CMC student I've seen who had the kind of explosive hair-trigger energy great taiji is meant to have. Ben Lo admitted to me that Huang was his superior when they met again in Malaysia forty years ago. Perhaps he was better than even his own teacher.

There's a whole back story about Professor Cheng that would be impolite to discuss on a public forum. I respect him for his intelligence and hard work but hate the stupid personality cult he allowed to grow around him and to some extent encouraged, particularly in the USA. It has sullied his reputation.

[taiwandeutscher]

Yang Zhenduo? You must be kidding.
When he was here in southern Taiwan early (2000s), he was so very disappointing, I couldn't believe what he said, disliked how he moved; he didn't even dare to cross hands with Ju Hongbin (another ZMQ indoor), and Yang's top disciples didn't win a single phs match, neither in Gaoxiong nor in Tainan.

Stories on ZMQ are abundant, also here in TW, he had never any reputation of being especially strong, and he got his ass handed by several other old style MAists. Still, he had the best reputation within the older KMT circles, very well connected to the Jiang family, with an endless stream of students, willing to glorify him.

The ZMQ style is still the most widely practiced one in Taiwan, in every park, its a kind of peoples' sports, mostly for health and nowadays it seems more and more with even a social function, an activity for older folks.

There are still quite a few higher level ZMQ practitioners, also ppl. who even accept challenges form anyone, going all the way.

But among MA circles in TW, ZMQ doesn't have any good reputation. Many lament that he did change the Martials Art into widely practiced gymnastics without any martial value, that he did a bad thing to MAs per se. None of the teachers of old, I have met here in the last 20 yrs., did ever praise him, and I myself wished, I had not spent so many yrs. in his and his students' systems.

But on the other hand, it gave me a decent basic TJQ education and brought me to study in depth with other teachers and their systems.

[kenneth fish]

In Taiwan ZMQ (CMC) was better known for his political connections than skill. As TaiwanDeutscher notes, he got knocked about a number of times when he put his mouth in gear before engaging his brain. He had very few admirers among his contemporaries across the spectrum of CMA in Taiwan, and seemed to have elicited particular disgust among the Taiwan White Crane teachers. Sadly, as is the case in so many endeavors, his version of Taiji became quite popular (as it promised results without exertion) and to some degree the good money has been driven out by the bad.

As for the propogandist drivel that was written to market him in America - the writers had a mutally beneficial releationship with him.

[windwalker]

Yang Zhenduo? You must be kidding.

Sadly, as is the case in so many endeavors, his version of Taiji became quite popular (as it promised results without exertion) and to some degree the good money has been driven out by the bad.

what can one say.
yang zhendou, is representative of his families system is he not?
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/
"ZMQ" his "version" try meeting the requirements of it.

what was about stylist differences degenerates into things that "cant be mentioned in public"
or what was "left out" ect.

[windwalker]

There are still quite a few higher level ZMQ practitioners, also ppl. who even accept challenges form anyone, going all the way.

But among MA circles in TW, ZMQ doesn't have any good reputation. Many lament that he did change the Martials Art into widely practiced gymnastics without any martial value, that he did a bad thing to MAs per se. None of the teachers of old, I have met here in the last 20 yrs., did ever praise him, and I myself wished, I had not spent so many yrs. in his and his students' systems.
But on the other hand, it gave me a decent basic TJQ education and brought me to study in depth with other teachers and their systems.

so it works but only for a few high level practitioners?
those that "lament" what have they done to promote the art, any art?
"martial value" in the age of guns we still speak of this.

teachers like ZMQ, and others helped imo keep the arts alive by allowing more to practice it.
those looking for more "true seekers can always find it if they'er truly seeking"

one of his more noted students

Master Huang Xingxian was born in Fujian Province, China, 1910. From the age of 14 he trained Baihequan (White Crane), Lohanquan (18 Buddha boxing) and Nei Gung (Daoist Internal Alchemy) under the well known Fujian White Crane Master Xie Zhongxian
(b. 1852 — d. 1930). Xie ZhongxianXie Zhongxian
Later he trained under Master Pan Chun-Nien who also educated Huang in Chinese Medicine and the Literary Classics. Subsequently Huang opened a school in Shanghai where he trained together with his friends Chung Yu-Jen (Taiji), Chiang Hai-Ching (Xingyi) and Yang Chih-Ching (Bagua). He also studied Taiji with Wan Laisheng (China Martial Arts Champion 1938). In 1947, having moved to Taiwan, he began Taiji with Zheng Manqing - a direct disciple of Yang Cheng-Fu. Quickly Huang entered the inner-school and in later years came to be regarded as Zheng's most accomplished disciple.

http://www.patrickkellytaiji.com/TEACHE ... gxian.html

why would anyone with such a background study with with someone
who according to some didn't have much to offer?

[taiwandeutscher]

Well, ZMQ did have some gongfu, that many MAists did miss, relaxation and softness.
Very interesting for me is that all high level ZMQ stylists I have met here in Taiwan, did have another background altogether. They did study with ZMQ after they had reached a high level in other arts.
I have heard that William C. C. Chen is the only one who started with ZMQ style, but only to add on later, no?

[lazyboxer]

Well, ZMQ did have some gongfu, that many MAists did miss, relaxation and softness.
Very interesting for me is that all high level ZMQ stylists I have met here in Taiwan, did have another background altogether. They did study with ZMQ after they had reached a high level in other arts.
I have heard that William C. C. Chen is the only one who started with ZMQ style, but only to add on later, no?

Ben Lo also started his MA training in his youth with CMC. He was so weak and ill that he did nothing but zhanzhuang for a long time until his legs stopped trembling like a leaf.

But later on, as one of CMC's gatekeepers, he became very close to other respected senior members of the Taiwan MA establishment, including Wang Shujin. I was very pleasantly surprised at our first meeting when he showed me the bagua single palm change Wang had taught him, which was crisper and cleaner than anything I'd previously seen or learned during the two years I'd spent studying it with Robert Smith!

So whether they had other training before or after working with CMC, everyone I can think of who had any kind of decent reputation also had supplementary outside training.

[windwalker]

Well, ZMQ did have some gongfu, that many MAists did miss, relaxation and softness.
Very interesting for me is that all high level ZMQ stylists I have met here in Taiwan, did have another background altogether. They did study with ZMQ after they had reached a high level in other arts.
I have heard that William C. C. Chen is the only one who started with ZMQ style, but only to add on later, no?

Ben Lo also started his MA training in his youth with CMC. He was so weak and ill that he did nothing but zhanzhuang for a long time until his legs stopped trembling like a leaf.

But later on, as one of CMC's gatekeepers, he became very close to other respected senior members of the Taiwan MA establishment, including Wang Shujin. I was very pleasantly surprised at our first meeting when he showed me the bagua single palm change Wang had taught him, which was crisper and cleaner than anything I'd previously seen or learned during the two years I'd spent studying it with Robert Smith!

So whether they had other training before or after working with CMC, everyone I can think of who had any kind of decent reputation also had supplementary outside training.

Maybe those coming from other arts could appreciate what he was trying to do. What I have found is that depending on how its taught and weather one can really meet the requirements its pretty demanding. Having taught it to others who had many yrs of MA training, their training didnt really help them other then allowing them to have the perseverance to work through the pain understanding it was just part of the practice.


interesting enough asking my teachers first grandson "reference to the taiji I currently practice"
about the training he mentioned "the more pain one can endure the deeper level one can achieve"

William C. C. Chen is the only one who started with ZMQ style, but only to add on later, no?

William C.C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan

http://www.williamccchen.com/

its common for noted students to go on and develop their "own" style "branding"

[cerebus]

Well, I personally prefer and practice the Cheng Man-Ching form myself. And my level of relaxation is what some here have called "flaccid" and yet I strive to constantly relax even further. As Peter Ralston has written in his books, you really CAN'T be TOO relaxed, short of turning into a pool of Jello on the floor.

The greater the relaxation, the greater the sinking and rooting, the greater the speed of movement in combat, and the greater the power, even though that seems paradoxical to many. It seemed a complete paradox to me many years ago. I hated the pics I had seen of William C. C. Chen, because he looked all "weak" and "collapsed". Now I strive for the same level of "collapsed" "weakness", because I have experienced how truly powerful and effective it really is in combat.

I feel the reason that William Chen's Tai Chi has always been such a model of extreme relaxation is because he had actually used his training in the full-contact ring and FELT it's effectiveness. At least that's been the case with me...

[Franklin]

for people looking down on the extreme relaxation practices- maybe you don't understand it
or perhaps you have reached the level of super human

i am not into any cult thinking

but i will say that when i was exposed to power generation methods from extreme relaxation
it opened a whole other world for my practice...

as for people saying that the hands are wrong in a move
i have had teachers that never did the same move exactly the same way twice- or it seemed like it
for a beginner it is difficult to understand or learn in that type of environment
but if you know a little about whats going on
you realize that all the ways are correct..

just my 2 cents

[SCMT]

. . . .

William Chen's also looks a bit flaccid (as compared to my Yang style) but I have crossed hands with one of his students and the form may be a bit flaccid (not as much as my friends form is though) but his push hands was pretty damn good. My friend's push hands though can only be described as incredibly rooted but more like a mountain than bamboo

Again Thanks

SCMT--

I think William C. C. Chen's taijiquan is definitely his own, and he's progressed far beyond (perhaps in spite of) whatever he trained under Zheng Manqing. Mr. Chen's taijiquan is very soft, but the difference is that he really makes that softness work. I candidly do not see ZMQ's extant videos showing real mastery of hua jin or leading into emptiness. That is just my opinion, one opinion among many, and I would be the first to qualify it by stating that I never had the opportunity to feel Zheng Manqing in tuishou myself.

I simply would not be interested in training with anyone today in the main teaching lines descending from Zheng Manqing's New York years.

That said--if you do wind up studying with someone in the ZMQ line and you experience real progress/insight, please come back and share here.

Good luck.

My goal, at this point is not to go looking for anyone trained in the main teaching lines descending from Zheng Manqing's New York years. I am, as I said, mostly curious about the original form. However I may end up training with William CC Chen, that is more where I am looking should I pursue anything that is associated with ZMQ.

Thanks

[neijia_boxer]

as someone who started in CMC and went to yang Family for comparison, i have to admit, CMC people have way better push hands. Most Yang people seem to be shy about it competitively or want to only do the structured push hands patterns. The yang form however depending on who teaches it, has alot of great power structure when taught with someone good at push hands, da shou, fighting, and knows tons of applications like throws, striking, qin-na, san shou, etc..


i interviewed a bunch of taiji players who are champions in Push hand competitions in USA and abroad. Many of them practice cheng Man ching's version of tai chi chuan.

some of them are:
Mario napoli
Mike pekor
Lenzie Williams
Kim Kanzelberger
Avi Schnieir
Rick Barret
Don Ethan Miller
David Walls-kaufmann
Chris Luth
Josh Waitzkin
Stephen Watson

http://polariswushu.net/blog/2013/12/30 ... ush-hands/

[johnwang]

as for people saying that the hands are wrong in a move
i have had teachers that never did the same move exactly the same way twice- or it seemed like it
for a beginner it is difficult to understand or learn in that type of environment
but if you know a little about whats going on
you realize that all the ways are correct..

The Taiji "double pulling" (after "the grasp sparrow's tail" and before the "single whip") is used to pull your opponent's arm. The best way to pull is to put one hand on his wrist and one hand on his elbow (If you hold one hand on your opponent's forearm and another hand on his upper arm, you won't be able to have a firm grips).

1. Since the distance between his wrist and elbow are defined, you can't separate your hands too far or too close.
2. Since your elbow pulling hand has to face up, your wrist pulling hand has to face down, You have to use one Yang hand (face up) and one Yin hand (face down). You can't use both Ying hands (both face down).
3. Since your are pulling your opponent's arm toward you, both of your "tiger mouth" have to face to you, and not face to your opponent.
4. When you pull, your opponent's arm will be parallel to the ground. Your both pulling hands have to be parallel to the ground as well. You can't have one higher hand and one lower hand.
5. When you pull, you have to use your body to pull your own arms. So your body should move 1st and your body followed.
6. When you pull, the angle of your fore-arms have to be in the right angles and not just 90 degree from your opponent's arm.
7. When your body change from one direction into another direction, both of your feet will have to turn in the right order with the right angle.

In order to meet the above 7 requirements, you just can't do "any way that you prefer". Of course if you are dancing, you can do any way that you want to.