Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:30 am

At least I learnt something from the Pogues
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:54 am

Not directly from Dan's system but an American guy, but other than a few differences in performance and the order it's otherwise for intent and purposes the same set, the naming of the exercises match up as well eg. rhinoceros facing the moon.. That one exists in Yi Quan too for example.

Search for the following terms, there are downloadable books (Lulu) and a video by this guy - his name is Thomas Keen
Iron Vest Qigong: Internal Strength & Health Set

A comment from the Amazon video page:
The exercises are very similar to a set of 24 "internal strength" exercises taught in certain branches of the Southern Wu school of taiji. I was really surprised, in fact, at how similar. The sequencing is somewhat different and there are differences in the way the exercises are performed but this is a really worthwhile addition to your martial arts library.
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:06 pm

George do you have a link to that book
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:24 pm

From the list there's only 16 methods in that book and they are not the same in name or order, though some ar similar in name.
The front photo bares no resemblence to any of the 24 though I haven't seen the rest of the methods.

Honestly though a book is not the medium to learn the 24 there is far too much detail and coordination involved in them. There is a reason that they are ltaught inside the door and only a handful of Dan's students are permitted to teach them.

Its not that you learn them once and that's it, you go off and practice them every day. Over almost 20 years Dan corrected mine regularly. Before being authorised to teach them ..... Well it went like this, I had organised for Dan to visit Dublin and give a seminar, during seminars it is usual to Dan to teach Nei Gung so I had a few lads progressing in the sets. They are normally taught 4 at a time, and once learned a student is encouraged to reattend sessions each time they are taught so they can be corrected etc. Likewise when I learned part of the sets in his home he went through all I had already learned too. Often you will practice with your elder brothers and sisters and receive advice and correction there too, so in a way the inside the door nature of the training ensures everyone is practicing correctly.

Take my own students, many have baishi under Dan many years ago but they train nei gung with me at least once every week sometimes before every session - sometimes if its only people who have done the sets who are at class I'll just teach the nei gung and associated applications and some tricks in wrestling or sanda or self defence that are inherent in The nei gung - thats how useful and important they are. Everything that makes TCC effective can be found in the 24..... If you have eyes to see! And if practiced correctly.




Anyway... Back to the seminar lads left as they completed practice of the part of the sets they were on. There were only 3 of us there by the end and on finishing off the sets Dan approached me with some advice on one of the yang sets static postures.

Everyone was then recalled back into the room (downstairs from the seminar hall.) And Dan announced that from then on they could learn nei gung from me, but people would still baishi under Dan for the following year.

A year later I was authorised to have students baishi under me. That was 3 years ago, in that time a single student has baishi under me, perhaps I too am not so open source with this training but it's because there is no point if the student isn't going to take it seriously, that doesn't mean they are bad students - perhaps they just want to hit bags and spar and I feckin know they are not ready to put the time into nei gung practice. See we have another set of chi gung exercise s that are taught from day one, these too are very useful and develop certain attributes. If a student isn't displaying them then I know they aren't part of daily practice so what's the point in handing them more training methods that take even longer to train each day?

The point about being authorisedto teach after well over a decade of daily practice and frequent instruction is that this was the same deal with Dan and his Sifu - Cheng Tin-Hung.

Unlike mcdojo practice like handing out blackbelts with 6 months punching the air this is the other end of the spectrum, ensuring quality, part of our oaths before baishi is that we practice diligently "so that we may pass the correct art on to others" , given the amount of highly successful fighters across many fomats in PTTCI it seems to have worked?

My advice is to find someone authorised to teach nearby if possible and train with them, contact Dan himself and he may be able to help?
Because there is no way a book or video can offer direct transmission - the guidance of a Sifu and elder brothers is invaluable in this endevor! Well it was for me anyway. '
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Graculus on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:24 pm

Interesting stuff — if these exercises are more important than the form, is it possible to learn 'taiji' without the form?

It is interesting to note that Chen style was supposed to incorporate the equivalent of these exercises within the form, and given the extended and often low postures in that style, one can see how a style with a smaller frame might incorporate additional exercises to make up for what the form lacks.

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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby willywrong on Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:19 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Cth was a fighter before all else as was:/is Colin chau
Colin did not talk much about the health aspect
Just do you be strong(meaning healthy)
Da liu talks about specific movements for health in some of his books.
Even things like ba tuan chin that is meant to focus on certain sections for different parts of the body overlap.
My first teacher who was an osteo chiro and accupuncturist and with whom I worked on an apprenticeship basis
Linked certain moves and exercises to specific health outcomes
With later study I put this down to wishful thinking
Good form with directed mind and focus concentrating on application seems to do the trick
I last saw a doctor in 1967


I am the number one student of Sifu Chau Chu Kwan ( Colin Chau). I began training with Chau Sifu on Feb 16 at 6pm 1973. I remember because one should always remember important moments in one's life. In 1978 I began asking Sifu to teach me Wu style. Each week for 13 months I asked and he refused. I gave up and a week later he told me that after work I was to come to his house and learn. I learnt the form, same one as in Cheng Tin Hung's book. He taught multiple applications for every movement. I would spend from 11am to 4pm every Tuesday for the next 2 and half to 3 years in this instruction. He wanted to teach me the 24 but I declined as he wanted me to reframe from having sex for 6 months and I was young then. My understanding of the 24 from Sifu is that 12 are for external development and 12 for internal and that's it. I have the flim of Rocky doing them and I like the footage. I do the exercises I leant in Penang in 73/74 but the real secret is in constantly drilling a correct form that's not the 90% of rubbish out there. Still have an very copy of Cheng Tin Hung's book and Dan Dochety look like a bum in the application section of the book. And you know what they say "Once an unfaithful woman always an unfaithful woman." Oh and I got to be Sifu's number one by being the only one left training.
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:39 am

Yes one abstains from sex and drink etc. For 100 days - hence the other name for the 24 - 100 day gung.

That's only 14 weeks, givem its once off nature its hardly a massive sacrafice? Many pro fighters throughout various formats do like wise before serious bouts!

But yes its why it is pointless teaching some people. There is sacrafice involved

"Looked like a bum" - ROFL !!! I guess you weren't partial to 70's flares look? Bit unfair to single Dan out though - all the lads demoing the applications looked similar ( i have the book too) - back in the days before tracksuits or Thai shorts became popular in martial arts I Guess and thankfully before the silk pyjama to look all spirtual craze hit TCC.

It does speak volumes that Dan appears in prominent areas of CTH's books, and how the pictures relating to the 1980 5th SE Asian victories of Dan and, Tong Chi-kin appear in Cheng's books - hardly where one would place "an unfaithful woman"? ;-)
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:04 am

Niall Keane wrote:From the list there's only 16 methods in that book and they are not the same in name or order, though some ar similar in name.
The front photo bares no resemblence to any of the 24 though I haven't seen the rest of the methods.


the title I gave out has 24 exercise (12 static/ 12 moving) plus seated meditation. Just like the HK Wu set. The HK Wu folks call the static ones yin and the moving one yang. It's the same thing.

You looked at the google link? Well the exercises are divided into 3 sets of 8 each making 24. looks like you saw 2 sample pages which showed the first 2 sets of 8. However there are 3 sets of 8 in there. The front photo is just a pose that is not one of the exercise from what I recall.




Honestly though a book is not the medium to learn the 24 there is far too much detail and coordination involved in them. There is a reason that they are ltaught inside the door and only a handful of Dan's students are permitted to teach them.




I am not suggesting people learn only from a book of course. If you have had a teacher, know how to hold a posture and move properly according to your style and have your 'internal methods' and 'external methods' then the above is neither here nor there. This set is not an exclusive tai chi set as far as I am concerned, it exists in a tai chi system but there is no proof it was developed in a tai chi system for a tai chi system - unless of course you can prove that it was. The set does not exist in any Yang style from where that groups Wu style came from so claiming it came from the same place and people Wu style tai chi came from needs supporting evidence, which does not exist as far as I am aware.

I think it came from outside TCC, and is "iron vest qigong" so to speak, that would explain the emphasis on the taking of blows in HK Wu, that is seen in no other TCC lineage that I am aware of. I think it has been retro fitted to compliment the tai chi system in your school, which is fine, but doesn't really necessarily make it tai chi..

:D

This is in no way a criticism of the set, it's good and as with all training you get out what you put in. It's comprehensive but at the end of the day, it's no more than a bunch of static postures and a bunch of movement exercise - in my opinion it's not something that should be so guarded and doesn't really deserve to be. But I think that 'secret' aspect attracts people, and is used as a device by teachers.
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:08 am

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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby allen2saint on Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:52 am

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/iron-v ... 1500?mt=11

iBooks has it for 6.99. And, apparently "customers also bought"...Winnie the Pooh?

I think these exercises, some of them anyway, have also been practiced by Yang people. I can understand the inclusion of something that works so well, particularly an iron vest set, into a person's Tai Chi, which is incorporated into their "style." CTH and Docherty have been upfront that the style they do is named because, to them, its a departure from HK Wu..this is the departure.
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:50 am

I don't know the lad selling the videos, he seems to be a karate guy by his bio, with a plethora of CMA bits and pieces added in? And I have no idea what he teaches as this set, not having seen the video. Could it be part of other systems outside of TCC? Who knows? People take bits and pieces of other systems and incorporate all the time.

But as the questions are about the 24 Nei Gung also called 100 Day Gung, we know what Docherty practices is what CTH practised and it works, and it all relates to common movements found in the TCC form and nei-jia alignments and power generation methods. I have already explained why it is not publicised widely, even the Bai Shi cermony oaths state not to “sell the art outside temples” a reference to days when arts were peddled outside of temples to the public passer by, think the scene in “Crouching Tiger hidden Dragon” when they arrive first in Beijing to calls of “learn your Yang Spear here!” , so in other words an oath is taken by the deciple not to bastardise the art by teaching it half-arsed to half-arsed people who will inevitably degrade the art. There is a lot in the oaths about maintaining quality and fighting ability and practising sincerely to be able to preserve the art and pass it on!!! ....

All I can say about the linked book is that the sets and names are similar for sure, but also tellingly different, could it be another related set that has been changed down the years in another style? Possibly – maybe there was a common ancestral practitioner? Could it be a half learned version of the 100 day Gung passed down as an adjunct part to another system rather then the core it forms in many TCC styles? (Wu, Tung, Li, possibly more, they are just the one's I know of) possibly? this wouldn't be something new either?

If it was the same I would straight out say it was, and I cant do that looking at the name differences and the posture displayed in the cover, it just conveys an image of high, non-strenuous postures which have no place in 100 Day Gung. So I can't imagine how such an approach cold possibly equate to similar results. I'm sure there is as much similarity in Shaolin Red Fist and Chen Tai chi forms but can one seriously suggest the internal methods are “the same”?

From Keen:

Set 1:

The Big Hug
Monk holding the bowl
Buffalo goes to the sea
Rest position
Movement excercises
Rabbit on parade
Crane
Cat chases the mouse
The whip
Twist and palm out

Set 2:

The Bird flies
Leading the sheep
Snake turns over
Elephant swings its trunk
Tiger claw
Horse Stomps its feet
Dragon Wraps around the pole
Rhino Looks at the moon

Set 3:
the hand
Tiger Stretches its back
The old man crawls out of the hole
Rowing the boat
Action of the axe
The eagle hunts for food
Monkey climbs the tree

Now The 100 Day gung:

Yin:
Golden tortoise
Embracing the one
Lifting a golden plate
Jade rabbit facing the moon
Red-capped crane stretching its feet
Civet cat catching Rats
Flick the whip on the left and right
White ape pushes out its paws
Swallow piercing the clouds
Leading the goat smoothly
Giant python turns its body
Elephant shaking its head

Yang:
Tiger Paw
Golden dragon coiled around a pillar
White horse pounds its hooves
Plant the fence left and right
Wu Gang chopping laurels
Rhinoceros faces the moon
Reclining tiger stretches its waist
Monarch of the mountain coming out of a cave
Boatman rowing the boat
Hungry eagle looking for food
Macaque leaping through the trees
Old man burning cinnabar

On a thread about Docherty Style TCC, where a forum member asks for information I think it at best lazy to state they are the same when by saying :
The HK Wu folks call the static ones yin and the moving one yang.
You prove that you have no idea about the set!

I don't want to get at anyone on this, like I know ALOT of disinformation has been sung about this set, and seems to become established fact. And perhaps people ape what they have heard through Chinese whispers? You know say something enough times and it becomes truth and all.. and also that there are also a lot of what Dan would call “pygmy detractors” who lap it up when people claim its not TCC or something CTH made up bla bla bla...

Fact is Wudang / Practical Tai Chi Chuan in the area of combat sports, where martial ability can be fairly compared and tested is way way more successful than any other TCC style. This has been the case now since 1957 when CTH got that ball rolling.

A lot of people then and now don't like this, basically begrudgers.
They cant beat us in established proven martial art ability so they try to beat us through rumour. And it is inevitable that even good people can fall victim to believing spiteful rumour.


Both Dan and CTH have written about the importance of the 100 Day Gung set, I concur of course and because some people don't have it in their style they insist it must be made up or borrowed from somewhere else. Some even suggesting CTH's father taught him the set although he passed away when CTH was 10, already having had his legs amputated due to diabetes ffs! His Uncle a top Wu Style desciple under Wu Jian-Quan had 16 of the excercises. Our “truth” is that he invited Qi Min-Xuan son of Qi Ke-San (a documented discipline of Jian-Quan and so TCC brother to CTH's uncle) to teach his sons and nephew. Min-Xuan had lost his entire family in the Japanese invasion so perhaps this employment opportunity marks Cheng Wing-Kwong's generous nature in helping out a TCC brother who has been through hell and back?
Whatever the truth in those turbulent times Min-Xuan had learned all 24 of the exorcises and also the spear form which Wing-Kwong had not. (Min-Xuan had learned from his father but also a Buddist monk Ching Yi who had learned from Wang Lan-ting who had escaped to a Buddist monastery after killing 6 Manchus.)

Now lots try and say today this all made up, despite the fact silence dominated these groups on the issue during CTH's lifetime. I guess its as ballsy as eunuchs get – defaming the honour of the most martially accomplished TCC master of the late twentieth century after his death? Unfortunately some of his relatives have joined the disgruntled but it must be remembered that after his success in 1957 his aunt, angered at the young masters success and being in competition with her husband in the TCC business sent him a black wreath! Likewise, ironically on this thread where many suggest a cultist secrecy about the nei gung set, much of the animosity towards CTH began when he refused to follow the six-year rule (the student visits the ,aster for 3 years then the master the student for a further 3 before they may bai shi and therefore learn inside the door methods such as the 100 Day Gung set!) This only increased with his and his students success, the HK journalists naming what he did as “practical” tai chi chuan, thus differentiating it from what one must assume to be not so “practical” probably didn't help matters either. Remember many very famous masters of the famous families taught in HK at that time!

So using Occam's razor, one has to ask who benefits from lying? We are already head and shoulders above other TCC styles in martial achievement, we have nothing to prove to anyone. The Chens seem to be back in the game these days, that's a really positive development, and respect has to be handed out to the likes of William Chen too and no doubt a few dark horses too, like many in PTCC they probably don't spend much time publicising their achievements.


Personally and I can probably speak for my brothers in PTCC and perhaps those I mentioned above who also focus on martial achievement, we don't give a fcuk what men in silk pyjamas think about us, we don't respect a “master” because of his name or lineage but only for his martial achievement. To us this indicates true transmission.

So getting back to the question, the book referenced doesn't seem to be the same, bar on a kind of superficial level. So don't go there to learn the 24 Nei Gung of “Docherty's TCC”, that's just a bad suggestion! My advice remains find someone who actually knows what they are talking about to learn from when it comes to the Nei gung of Docherty's / CTH's system.

I guess when one thinks about it, an unscrupulous individual who has learned the system could DVD sell it and make a packet, there seems to be a vast amount of people fascinated about its mystique? The fact that noone has should suggest the integrity of the people involved and the fact that such people understand the value of this training when done properly and what that entails, dont want to fuck it up. You don't get handed a Picasso and take out your crayon!
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Michael on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:21 am

I've gone longer than 100 days and didn't get no gong-fu, or even get a set of steak knives. Or green stamps!
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:25 am

Hey Niall, that was my mistake then if that's not how you refer to Yin and Yang portions. But there's no reason why they can't be as it is such an arbitrary assignation anyways. But the point stand that there are 12 static and 12 moving - that part IS the same right? I am not the only person with some knowledge of the set and the book who sees them as essentially the same thing or otherwise incredible similar - too much so to be merely a coincidence.

For the record I have trained with Neil who wrote the article you linked earlier. You should just spend the six or seven pounds and see for yourself how similar it is.

As for the rest, I suggest you get over it man - this shit does not give you any super powers. The set is aggrandized by Docherty group way more than it deserves to be in my humble opinion. Having bought the cool aid farm, it doesn't surprise me that my opinion wouldn't go down too great with you.

take it easy ;)
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:31 am

cloudz wrote:Hey Niall, that was my mistake then if that's not how you refer to Yin and Yang portions - no doubt they have been layed out differently. But the point stand that there are 12 static and twelve moving. I am not the only person with some knowledge of the set who sees them as essentially the same thing.

For the record I have trained with Niall who wrote the article you linked earlier. You should just spend the six or seven pounds and see for yourself how similar it is.

As for the rest, I suggest you get over it man - this shit does not give you any super powers. The set is aggrandized by Docherty group way more than it deserves to be in my opinion. Having bought the cool aid, it doesn't surprise me that my opinion wouldn't go down to great with you.

take it easy tough guy ;)



There are 7 static in total throughout the 24 not 12. As a fantasy swordsman once said: "I don't think it means what you think it means" ;-) it doesn't sound like you have done them?
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Re: Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

Postby Niall Keane on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:34 am

Michael wrote:I've gone longer than 100 days and didn't get no gong-fu, or even get a set of steak knives. Or green stamps!



I once told a younger cousin of mine - his response - "jasus! That's longer off drink than anyone in our whole family since they made their confirmation" ;-)
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