Anatomical structure of dantien & ....

[kenneth fish]

With all do respect, this thread is about physical training and effects. Philosphy and metaphysics really does not enter into it.

[yeniseri]

I believe what you are trying to say is that this sort of practice elicits sympathetic reactions which produce these effects.

Yes!

[mixjourneyman]

respectfully noted.
however， the original poster asked about something which is not clearly an anatomical feature of the body.
if he had asked how to use the pelvic floor or something less ephemeral than elixir field， then the question may not have strayed so far into the nether regions of buddha's butt crack ><

[yeniseri]

excuse my odd sense of humour but "If one sees the 'boody', grab it!
ooopppss, I forget that some of us may not be 'boody conscious" so that may be too much to grab onto, sayeth the blind man.

[Tom]

Facia is so superficial. :-p

[kenneth fish]

Tom:

Those sort of articles drive me nuts, as they conflate the abilities of various structures and make assumptions that, although quite reasonable to an engineer or someone without an intimate knowledge of anatomy, are really way off the mark in terms of the structure and properties of fascia. I quote from an article that appeared in Science:

"Robert Schleip – a longtime researcher and director of Ulm University's Fascia Research Group – has expressed similar frustrations over what he calls "the current trend among bodyworkers of attributing anything wonderful or astonishing to the properties of fascia":

[Our research group] has been receiving an almost exponentially increasing number of inquiries from enthusiastic healers (and martial art teachers) worldwide who wish that we would sanctify their claims that fascial contraction provides the explanation for their observed miracle powers. While I do tend to believe that the fascial net plays much larger roles in human functioning than previously assumed in orthopedic medicine, I am afraid that such over-zealous claims and projections are undermining the seriousness of the investigation."

[dspyrido]

respectfully noted.
however， the original poster asked about something which is not clearly an anatomical feature of the body.
if he had asked how to use the pelvic floor or something less ephemeral than elixir field， then the question may not have strayed so far into the nether regions of buddha's butt crack ><

There is truth in that. I used the term dantien which we've established is a multifaceted term that is used in martial, health and spiritual contexts. But as a martial thread you will note that the original questions I posed did emphasise the physical concept of dantien and how it relates to martial arts. Although spiritual and essence conversations can be interesting and might relate to health (an important part of martial arts) I am yet to see them directly applied to the martial context.

But the term dantien has been used by several top notch chineses martial artists. When asked about details they would point to the physical region around the lower basin and proceed to demonstrate its use in combat techniques. It's a very real physical region that for me is a big part of what puts the internal in ima.

[dspyrido]

It's early days in this area.

The problem with a lot of these sorts of articles is that they are based on arguments on the absence of evidence and lack of testing. Things like:

- I propose a hypothesis
- there is no evidence to prove me wrong or right
- but in order for you to understand you just need to change your frame of refence until you agree with me

Then to support this you see arguments like - look what einstein did to newton or what quantum physics did to einstein. A form of logical misdirection.

So although sometimes interesting and potentially right the biggest problem is that invariably many many of the conjectures are wrong. But by that stage the article is out there and the damage is done.

[dspyrido]

So anyone disagree on the physical importance of that region called dantien and how it relates to martial arts?

If you're a supportive and you induct it into your practise then how do you train it?

How do you apply it?

[BonesCom]

Have we covered the notion that the region itself is not important/does not "drive movement" but that its physical appearance/development is a consequence of certain types of training that allows one to "express full body power"?

[mixjourneyman]

as it stands,
dantian is a term which is used in martial arts because of their relationship with daoism and chinese medicine.
most chinese arts styles can be classified as "dao tong," or connected by principle- for instance, cha dao, or tea ceremony which is my other big hobby- emphasises the Buddhist idea of service from the diamond sutra as a way to make tea for other people to drink. the highest level of chadao is very closely related to Buddhism and practitioners believe the art will help them attain final liberation (that is an oversimplificatoin, but you get the idea). sound at all like something sun lutang would have written about IMA?
the terms dantian and ming men have their original meanings in Daoism and medicine, and their use in martial arts is comparitively modern, crude, and underinformed.
I recently had the luxury of spending a week with Master Yang in Montreal and he talked at length of the connection between martial arts and daoism.
he said that it is a very difficult topic to approach in public because most people won't accept it, but at a high level, chinese martial arts, medicine, and spiritual practice are very closely related to each other.
I am also of this opinion, but then again, I haven't the sam level of experience as my teacher or even many of the posters here.
I'm just adding my feeble bit to te conversation in hopes that it can add another dimension or two to this dantian thing.
Suffice to say, in martial arts, dantian must have at least some mental practice involved, as it is a point of physical balance, and as such, to balance correctly in ima, the mind must be directer there- or as cheng man qing said, you must sink your qi in order to get real internal power.
this whole breaking chinese martial arts down into an exact western physical science is total hokum, as the terminology used to describe physical processes in ancient chinese language and modern western language are as different as night and day.
the point rests that the dantian is not a collection of muscles in any practice other than the minds of a few martial artists.

[Bodywork]

this whole breaking chinese martial arts down into an exact western physical science is total hokum, as the terminology used to describe physical processes in ancient chinese language and modern western language are as different as night and day.
the point rests that the dantian is not a collection of muscles in any practice other than the minds of a few martial artists.

I think the key point you make in this statement--and please correct me if it's not what you meant to say--is "terminology used to describe physical processes." Fine, modern Western language differs from ancient Chinese language in this respect. But if dantian is a physical process--e.g., pattern of muscle/fascial usage--then the different terminology isn't that critical. If dantian is a physical process then it can be trained by physical practice.

But in perusing past pages of this thread I don't think you are saying this exactly.

Dantian is the result of a physical process created by mental control of the body. That said, it *is* a physical change in the body.
However, this process changes the mind and spirit of a man and eventually the spirit/ mind/body become one. I think this "process" ceates a daunting physical presence under anyones terms. Stories of which are well known.
I have surmised that what we give or put out is felt and seen on more than just one level.
I think for us; the training process goes from external inward to mental to reach spirit. Spirit goes outward to effect mental to effect physical. The man becomes, whole.
We are more than flesh.
Dan

[Ralteria]

Well, physical evidence not withstanding, our minds take in a great deal more than we can consciously realize. The same type of intent that is focused inwards to aid physical change can palpably be felt outwardly. Whether it is consciously recognized is kinda ancillary. Which is why intent is king in this kinda work.

[Deadmonki]

Dantian in neidan is not dantian in martial arts.

Both have to be developed and created. The process for doing so is not the same.

Daoism has post-heaven and pre-heaven cultivation, many conflate them. Post-heaven cultivation is closer to martial practice. Neidan is different. Neidan is also not "qigong".

Of course there are exceptions, and some individuals pursued the training of both martial and neidan.

I have found individuals who know and understand dantian in neidan are as rare as though who understand dantian in martial arts.

Best,

[kenneth fish]

+1