Anatomical structure of dantien & ....

[wiesiek]

..."But are "Chinese tendon meridians" the same as normal Chinese meridians? Why are they called "tendon meridians"?..."

if we are speakin` about "core steam" /central foot to head and back connection/ discussed and pictured couple threads ago -:
it should be connected with "classic" meridians network / 12 organs meridians and Ren and Du central meridians/ via some points,
if
there is/ are meridian/s/ of some kind, they aren`t the same as normal Chinese meridians
my
shot in the fog, `cause I`m not tcm Doc.

[wiesiek]

ps
re:classic translation
this short part is about central triplets of meridians around central core, I suppose

[kenneth fish]

dspyrido:

You are correct - this (flushing, heat sensation) is a reflection of focus and intent - which is prerequisite for learning how to create the dantian phenomena. My first kung fu teacher, Master Henry Leung, demonstrated this on the first day of instruction in Buddha Hand Wing Chun, and I was experiencing this (and some other related phenomenae) after about 3 or 4 weeks - so much so that I was concerned and asked Master Leung if I was doing something wrong.
My first Lohan teacher, Abbot Heng Yueh, expected students to experience this within the first few months of practice as well, as did Master Zhang, my Xingyi teacher. All of this was from training (lian gong) and basic skills practice - we were not yet doing standing work (zhan zhuang).

[Doc Stier]

Muscles and Meridians
The Manipulation of Shape

BY PHILLIP BEACH
ELSEVIER 2010

Foreword by Leon Chaitow, ND, DO, Osteopathic Practitioner and Honorary Fellow, University of Westminister, London, UK.

Clarity is slowly emerging, from various disciplines, regarding the complexly integrated way the body functions. Recent research by scientists such as Ingber (2006), Langevin (2001) and Schleip et al (2005), as well as clinicians and anatomists such as Hedley (2007), Stecco (2007) and Myers (2009), has helped to reveal more clearly – for example – the important role of fascial structures in offering shape, coherence, stability, mobility and communication potential, to the body’s economy.

Another part of that understanding involves a greater appreciation of the importance of tensegrity in the architecture of everything, from the cell to gross human musculo-ligamento-skeletal structures – and how they move and function. Equally this growing understanding of the interconnectedness of everything helps to clarify why restriction, dysfunction and tissue modification (resulting from pathology, overuse, misuse, abuse or disuse) in one part of the body, can produce major repercussions at a distance.

By surveying, investigating and charting the human condition relative to shape, posture, and movement (he describes movement as ‘the coherent changing of shape’)– in the contexts of evolution (how did early life forms move?), embryology (the extraordinary processes of cleavage, folding, compaction and more, of the embryonic disc, to the point where limb buds, arches and the beginnings of sense organs appear), childhood development, physiology and neural function, and what he terms ‘archetypal postures’ – Phillip Beach has advanced our understanding – and has offered a new way of understanding the way the human body works – or fails to work when unbalanced and out of synchronisation (‘out of tune’) with its optimal patterns.

Beach’s training in osteopathic medicine, his exploration of dance, martial arts, movement therapies (such as Pilates and yoga), and his newfound understanding of Traditional Chinese Medicine’s (TCM) meridian map, has informed his investigations and findings – for example of movement patterns that he terms ‘contractile fields‘, which are structurally and functionally connected to sense organs. In building the arguments for the validity of his findings he notes a neurological hierarchy, in which the organs of sense, taste, sight, smell, etc. offer the cues that drive much basic, primitive, movement. He also focuses attention on the adaptative processes involved in our anti-gravity evolutionary struggle to rise from the floor – where sitting, squatting, crawling and wriggling are more appropriate – to the upright where standing and walking become possible.

Among the common-sense approaches suggested by this detailed exploration of the body are some extremely simple and clinically practical suggestions:

To spend more time on the floor in ‘archetypal postures of repose’ such as squatting, kneeling, cross-legged, tailor’s position and long-sitting
To revisit the processes involved in rising from the floor to upright;
to pay attention to the state of our feet.

[Deadmonki]

But are "Chinese tendon meridians" the same as normal Chinese meridians? Why are they called "tendon meridians"?

The jingjin are neuro-myofacial paths related indirectly to the acupuncture channels. This definition is from Nguyen Van Nhi respected Chinese medical practitioner and translator. He coined the term 'tendino-muscular channel' back in the 50's along with his colleagues.

Jin 筋, as a term has confounded translation for many many years. Is it muscle? Is it tendon? Would sinew be better? Nguyen Van Nghi states “In 1959, with Chamfrault, we [Nguyen Van Nghi et al] designated them [jingjin] under the name “tendinomuscular channels” to simplify the term “neuro-tendino-ligamento-muscular”. and that jin 筋 “encompasses the sense of ‘muscles, nerves, tendons and ligaments‘.”

The actual diagrams of the pathways of the jingjin, similarly to the acupuncture meridians are usually fairly recent attempts at illustrating the descriptions that appear in the Lingshu. They leave a lot to be desired.

They have a different 'directionality' than the acupuncture meridians, and a different 'cycle of qi'. In my view and experience they are often far more relevant and important for bodywork, health/physical (post-heaven) daoyin (qigong), and martial arts. Yet it seems people prefer to discuss acupuncture.

There are some who are beginning to adopt or attempt to merge the idea of 'myo-fascial trains' from Myers work with the jingjin. However, this implies they are the same thing, both conceptually and anatomically. Which has not been established.

Much of the recent "We've found the acupuncture meridians! They're fascia!" crowd are simply re-discovering the same relationship the Chinese always knew It is what comes of only a part of a whole being taught or transplanted.

The anatomical and physiological maps and understanding in Chinese medicine are deep, and certainly far more than the acupuncture meridians, which is an erroneous view I continue to come across. Which isn't to say anyone here has that view.

Best,

[Deadmonki]

Muscles and Meridians
The Manipulation of Shape

BY PHILLIP BEACH
ELSEVIER 2010

Interesting looking book, thanks for sharing

Best,

[mixjourneyman]

有名万物之母

with a name it is the mother of all beings.

This comes to mind as a reason why the valley gorge should be considered as female.
The way in which laozi talks about the empty is as the feminine- or more importantly, as the non tangible and soft.

[dspyrido]

dspyrido:

You are correct - this (flushing, heat sensation) is a reflection of focus and intent - which is prerequisite for learning how to create the dantian phenomena. My first kung fu teacher, Master Henry Leung, demonstrated this on the first day of instruction in Buddha Hand Wing Chun, and I was experiencing this (and some other related phenomenae) after about 3 or 4 weeks - so much so that I was concerned and asked Master Leung if I was doing something wrong.
My first Lohan teacher, Abbot Heng Yueh, expected students to experience this within the first few months of practice as well, as did Master Zhang, my Xingyi teacher. All of this was from training (lian gong) and basic skills practice - we were not yet doing standing work (zhan zhuang).

Thanks - interesting perspective seeking these sensations so early. The guidance I was given was - "you feel stuff? Ok keep going." It was only when "hair stands on edge" came about under a relaxed state and on demand was this viewed as subtle control of the nervous systen. But it was not related to dantien. Dantien from a core/physical connection was engaged by direct physical training and can be trained directly via twisting and compressing motions.

As a teaching method do you recommend students not get too concerned with these sensations until something overtly visible happens or do you recommend building awareness of and focus on it (but not at the sacrifice of real physical training)?

[kenneth fish]

Allow me to clarify- the teachers expected to see these results, but they were not the goal or focus of the practice. They were a byproduct of the practice. Yes, dantian work is physical - but it requires focus and intent.

[yeniseri]

Anyway - back to topic...

Are the other "moving balls" related to the dantian then? Can one just train the "zouchangzi" or "zourouqiu" before learning to move the dantian around first?

My bagua teacher can make his fingertips flush red (while the palms turn white) at will - is this kind of control of autonomous functions related to dantian, or just something different?

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ONLY
1. The "moving energetic 'electrical" phenomena appears to be a byproduct of "discharge" of affiliation with an energy center (as in qihai-lower dantian)
2. The dantian (lower) does not move, per my understanding. Through the equivalent of chansujin of dai meridian and some level of personal awareness, this 'sensing' has always been there. the AWARENESS level is the beginning of some energetic understanding of the 'energetic body'. Excuse the vague language. All these are not special and they all rely on the normal autonomic design of the human body, with no relationship to an nonexistent location of dantian. I am only saying that it is a different way and level of expression of normal ANS behavior!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system

[kenneth fish]

I believe what you are trying to say is that this sort of practice elicits sympathetic reactions which produce these effects.

[D_Glenn]

in reply to body work
玄牝之门是谓天地根、

the female mystery gate is the root of the world.

This translation has always been dubious to me, despite its frequent usage. The text talks about a deep gorge.
The line before reads: 谷神不死，是谓玄牝
The valley/gorge (谷) spirit doesn't die, it is called the deep gorge (牝)
Chinese like to use synonyms or quasi-synonyms, so they don't use the same word again and again in short succession. In the first part of the sentence they use 谷 in the second part they use 牝. It is true that 牝 also means female and it is likely that the author plays with this double meaning (females give birth to new life), but to translate the word as female is over the top. It should be a footnote or commentary.
So I would rather translate the sentence
玄牝之门是谓天地根
as
The gate(way)* of the deep gorge (牝) is called the root of heaven and earth.

*One could even read the 'gate' as 'way' in Chinese, as in 'the way something works', so then it would be: The way of the deep gorge is called the root of heaven and earth.

Dao De Jing chapter 6


.

[shawnsegler]

I've watched this whole series of Andrew Nugent Head's translation of the Tao Te Jing like 8 or 9 times now (generally an episode or two on the way to bed every night for a few weeks).

The whole story of the ecological importance of the "valley spirit" is wonderful information.

I'm a huge fan of AN-H. He really speaks to me as goofy as that sounds.

S

[cdobe]

I have already acknowledged that there is definitely an allusion to the 'female principle', because of the double meaning of the word. However, I made a valid point about why it should rather be translated as valley/gorge in my opinion. Basically: The beginning of the line makes it a 'valley sentence'
It is primarily an agricultural/nature metaphor, which is the part of the above video I agree with. There are a couple of things though, I do not agree with. For instance, it is very questionable to use superstitious beliefs of non-Chinese modern day tribes to conclude that this is the meaning of Laozi's 'valley spirit'. It is pure speculation.
I also do not buy the interpretation that the Laozi text was intended to be a text about internal alchemy. This interpretation, where this whole 'valley spirit' means emptiness idea comes from, is a much later reinterpretation.

[mixjourneyman]

The alchemy thing holds water, whether as a direct practice or in a philosophical way. Laozi was also big on yin yang metaphor. 玄牝 almost certainly has a root in emptiness.
有无相生，
专气之柔能婴儿，
道常无为而为无为
Are all fairly clearly connected at least to cultivation of a meditative mindset.