the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Dan wrote:

So...
What about, upper abdomen?
Back and front together?
Side of dantian?
how about touching a teacher ANYWHERE..and feeling unusual forces going on?
How about...
everywhere at the same time?

Yes to all of the above for the teachers I mentioned - however activity in other areas (say, the upper abdomen, the back, the flanks) goes by separate and distinct terminology. For example, my Shaolin teachers referred to movement in the upper abdomen (or in a great circle following the general outline of the large intestine) as "zou changzi". Lam Sang could make a visible lump appear on his flank and seem to travel to his back or up his side (zou rouqiu) and so on. All of them had the feeling of the entire body expanding and moving (sometimes as if the body were being inflated, other times as if a wave were passing through them). They almost all called these demonstrations of "neigong" - but if one was to ask them about "the dantian" they would invariably refer to the lower abdomen.

The palpable, moving inflatable ball of tissue in and around the lower abdomen seemed to still be fairly common in Shanghai when I was living there in 2006. At least, my xinyiliuhe teacher and two or three of his better students could demonstrate it.

I'm going to throw this out. When people mention to me - "you can only learn this stuff from a rare master" - I only have one question. Who taught the expert?

In the end and at some point someone figured this out by themselves without the aid of the information that we are exposed to today. I also don't believe for a second that the various lines of masters where all part of the same single line spark that started it all.

So instinct & logic tells me that this is not a concept that can only be transmitted via direct contact with a guru. I don't propose that everyone out there can pick up a book and wuxia themselves into mastery. But the original learning process was and has always been an exercise of serious self discovery that does benefit from a great instructor. In absence of the guru people learn stuff by exploring, exchanging, training hard and testing a lot.

Wrong or right?

Indeed

dspyrido wrote:I'm going to throw this out. When people mention to me - "you can only learn this stuff from a rare master" - I only have one question. Who taught the expert?

What "stuff" do you mean? Some aspects are very general. The most important aspects as understanding center, developing a strong center and moving from the center can be taught in many different ways and in many different arts from different cultures.

But TCMA has specific exercises developed through various people over a very long time. Those exercises represents endless hours of trials and errors. Yes, of course you need an expert to learn them. Do you need a rare master? They don't need to be masters or rare. A good understanding of certain exercises and body mechanics in general should be fine.

In absence of the guru people learn stuff by exploring, exchanging, training hard and testing a lot.
Wrong or right?

Right. And with a good "guru", you will also have access to a great material developed through many people's exploring, exchanging, training hard and testing a lot. You will have access to different short cuts and methods to avoid mistakes.

dspyrido wrote:I'm going to throw this out. When people mention to me - "you can only learn this stuff from a rare master" - I only have one question. Who taught the expert?

In the end and at some point someone figured this out by themselves without the aid of the information that we are exposed to today. I also don't believe for a second that the various lines of masters where all part of the same single line spark that started it all.

So instinct & logic tells me that this is not a concept that can only be transmitted via direct contact with a guru. I don't propose that everyone out there can pick up a book and wuxia themselves into mastery. But the original learning process was and has always been an exercise of serious self discovery that does benefit from a great instructor. In absence of the guru people learn stuff by exploring, exchanging, training hard and testing a lot.

Wrong or right?

The original learning process also included;
Thousands of wasted hours-when there was a faster way
Thousands of wasted hours -leading to dead ends
Wrong conclusions
Giving up because ...that stuff doesn't work.
or worse...doing all of the above and eventually going somewhere meaningful to find out that in the end...all you did was re-invent the wheel. Something someone could have given you a set of instructions for.
I like teachers
Dan

Amen to that Dan. It's hard enough to figure out with help from good people.
Jess

Bodywork wrote:

dspyrido wrote:When people mention to me - "you can only learn this stuff from a rare master" - I only have one question. Who taught the expert?

In the end and at some point someone figured this out by themselves without the aid of the information that we are exposed to today. I also don't believe for a second that the various lines of masters where all part of the same single line spark that started it all.

The original learning process also included;
Thousands of wasted hours-when there was a faster way
Thousands of wasted hours -leading to dead ends
Wrong conclusions
Giving up because ...that stuff doesn't work.
or worse...doing all of the above and eventually going somewhere meaningful to find out that in the end...all you did was re-invent the wheel. Something someone could have given you a set of instructions for.
I like teachers
Dan

Yes, Sir. Ain't that the truth!

It was all I could do to learn traditional IMA's with excellent instruction and refinements from superb masters. It is thus difficult to imagine getting even a fraction of it starting from scratch all by myself.

Bingo. The desire to "explore for oneself" although admirable, excludes the notion of learning from other peoples experience and their lessons learned from their mistakes. I believe it was Einstein who said "If I can see far, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants".

I would have no viable fighting skill without my teachers. I'm not a "natural killer" or whatever.
Jess

kenneth fish wrote:Dan wrote:

So...
What about, upper abdomen?
Back and front together?
Side of dantian?
how about touching a teacher ANYWHERE..and feeling unusual forces going on?
How about...
everywhere at the same time?

Yes to all of the above for the teachers I mentioned - however activity in other areas (say, the upper abdomen, the back, the flanks) goes by separate and distinct terminology. For example, my Shaolin teachers referred to movement in the upper abdomen (or in a great circle following the general outline of the large intestine) as "zou changzi". Lam Sang could make a visible lump appear on his flank and seem to travel to his back or up his side (zou rouqiu) and so on. All of them had the feeling of the entire body expanding and moving (sometimes as if the body were being inflated, other times as if a wave were passing through them). They almost all called these demonstrations of "neigong" - but if one was to ask them about "the dantian" they would invariably refer to the lower abdomen.

I am very interested Is there any way to anatomically explain how a lump would appear and move around (i.e. is it a blob of muscle? Which muscle would it be?)? My minimal learning only really dealt with the dantian at all - which I guess would be a prerequisite for the other "blob moving"...

Interesting about the terminology, too, thanks!

I think the edededed question is a good one so I don't want to derail this too much. I am happy to start another thread on the learning process of ima (or martial arts in general) but here are my thoughts....

Bodywork wrote:The original learning process also included;
Thousands of wasted hours-when there was a faster way
Thousands of wasted hours -leading to dead ends
Wrong conclusions
Giving up because ...that stuff doesn't work.
or worse...doing all of the above and eventually going somewhere meaningful to find out that in the end...all you did was re-invent the wheel. Something someone could have given you a set of instructions for.
I like teachers
Dan

I like teachers to. But they are also a crutch with many people falling into followship. Worse is also the persona that takes on a master status simply because they did the time, followed the course and learnt the curriculum.

But greatness never came from following but from leading and if the reliance is on doing what you are told to do then you will never innovate to a new level. Here are a few names not related to martial arts but the point is still universal.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/15-notable-people-who-dropped-out-of-school1.htm

Most martial art greats are recognised by what they achieved - not because they studied under so and so. Even those who studied under a great and achieved fame where because of their achievements.

As for the learning process - yes it will definitely be more efficient with a good honest guide (or guides). The problem is that not all people (sometimes know as masters) are altruistic and don't always have the interest of the student outgrowing the master. Many like to keep a school full, fill a seminar or publish the dvd/book as priority #1 and this does conflict with the best interest of the student.

kenneth fish wrote:Bingo. The desire to "explore for oneself" although admirable, excludes the notion of learning from other peoples experience and their lessons learned from their mistakes. I believe it was Einstein who said "If I can see far, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants".

Not trying to be a know it all but I remembered this as Newton and have subsequently found it to be someone else (accordingly to universally undisputed wikipedia anyway):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

I highlight this because the person who I remember mentioning it to me all those years ago also outlined another concept that stuck - "imitate and then innovate". So I don't condone the wuxia warrior but I have seen so many people who simply do without putting in the effort, thinking, questioning, testing and trialling that it makes me wonder about the robotic nature of only learning from the master.

Also ultimately shouldn't martial arts be about self mastery? How can this evolve if you never learnt to get out from the masters gaze and do for yourself?

Anyway - if this is to continue I am happy to post another thread.

You need both man.The lesson of your elders and the willingness to break off and find your own way. That's the rite of passage principle in every society but it applies to most of the things in life that need learning. Eventually though, the hand holding becomes a detriment.

Momma bird can teach the chickies the fundamentals but they have to take that first leap out of the nest themselves. 1 bird can't help another fly. Learn what you need to but you still have to explore, exchange, train hard and test like you said. Life and kung fu are hard enough besides, there's no need to learn things the hard, long, grueling way. Its better to build and innovate off of what people before discovered. Its seems more efficient that way in the grand scheme. We'd still be in the stone age if we had to reinvent the wheel and rediscover fire every generation. Can't let pride screw you out of knowledge.

Dajenarit wrote:You need both man.The lesson of your elders and the willingness to break off and find your own way. That's the rite of passage principle in every society but it applies to most of the things in life that need learning. Eventually though, the hand holding becomes a detriment.

Momma bird can teach the chickies the fundamentals but they have to take that first leap out of the nest themselves. 1 bird can't help another fly. Learn what you need to but you still have to explore, exchange, train hard and test like you said. Life and kung fu are hard enough besides, there's no need to learn things the hard, long, grueling way. Its better to build and innovate off of what people before discovered. Its seems more efficient that way in the grand scheme. We'd still be in the stone age if we had to reinvent the wheel and rediscover fire every generation. Can't let pride screw you out of knowledge.

Agreed - back to dantien.

dspyrido wrote:I'm going to throw this out. When people mention to me - "you can only learn this stuff from a rare master" - I only have one question. Who taught the expert?

In the end and at some point someone figured this out by themselves without the aid of the information that we are exposed to today. I also don't believe for a second that the various lines of masters where all part of the same single line spark that started it all.

So instinct & logic tells me that this is not a concept that can only be transmitted via direct contact with a guru. I don't propose that everyone out there can pick up a book and wuxia themselves into mastery. But the original learning process was and has always been an exercise of serious self discovery that does benefit from a great instructor. In absence of the guru people learn stuff by exploring, exchanging, training hard and testing a lot.

Wrong or right?

More wrong than right.

In principle, yes of course someone had to figure it out to begin with. In practice, these capabilities are developed into a format by people who figured them out as individuals or small groups, but eventually they have to be propagated as a system of knowledge by some kind of inter-generational institution, which can mean a martial arts school and/or a formal religion. The knowledge is propagated because it has inherent value to a group of people who usually recognize first and foremost that the knowledge gives them advantage over other people.

Once this realization is made, the knowledge will be guarded and the advantage it gives becomes a power base that usually corrupts those holding the knowledge. Cue yoda voice. Unless the knowledge is actively used to promote something like health benefits and disseminated widely, as in Chinese Medicine or other useful systems of knowledge that have been successfully propagated and actively used for the benefit of many, the corruption process continues until the institution actively seeks to weaken, dilute, and distort the knowledge in the public domain so as to reinforce their advantage of having much more useful forms of the inherent knowledge and abilities that people have, but need techniques to cultivate.

Please extrapolate the above into your own viewpoint of religious institutions (or military R & D), which are almost always associated with martial arts schools, whose job is to cultivate the knowledge of intrinsic human mental and spiritual power, but who obviously do everything possible to obscure it, then dole it out in a hierarchy, usually teaching it purposefully incorrectly (eg. giving incorrect kundalini training to create sex addicts the way Satanists, Buddhists, or Mantak Chia's books do), and in a very limited way to neophytes so as to obligate them to serve the institution in order to gather enough knowledge to figure out something useful, and by then they are usually corrupted into this "power by advantage" mentality through a system of mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse, as well as rituals, and given mental conditioning to accept the abuse, partly with the implied promise of eventually being able to reciprocate the maltreatment downward to those new recruits of the hierarchy.

End yoda voice. Cue eery music, lol.