Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:19 am

The way that most Taiji is taught is utter bullshite. It was enough for me to almost quit it completely. From what I've heard even Bagua and XY are susceptible to this.

Most are taught forms and Zhanzhuang and expected to find this unattainable feeling. Actually using it to fight is so far in the future that you may as well forget about it.

Shifu said; "Song? What is Song? Do the form with a brick in each hand every day. Then do it without. That's Song." Furthermore, having studied with five or six masters [of different Taiji styles] in different parts of China, another thing became apparent; the whole form was never taught by the master, sometimes not even partially. It was doing repetitions of "Yunshou", "Yema Fenzhong", "Danbian" and other "postures" over and over again with footwork, plus other Gongli training. There was also specific Neigong training to connect the body and mind and learn how to Fajin. Also, there was fighting! Linking the movements together into a form was more of an afterthought to help you remember the whole curriculum and give you something to practise when you were lazy or demonstrate the art to others.

Tuishou and Sanshou was taught from early on but was basically getting your arse kicked all the time until your Gongli started achieving results. Shifu loves saying; "I'm not the Shifu. THIS is the Shifu!" *Insert strike, kick, Qinna, throw etc.* You learn to protect your balls at all times quite quickly! Shifu says that if his students aren't exhibiting some internal power after several months of training that he is failing as a teacher.

I began studying his foundation training, which is the same regardless of which art students decide to learn from him, and wanted to get out of Taiji, which seemed like a hopeless cause. Shifu, bless his heart, began teaching me Xinyiliuhequan and even some Baguazhang and other arts (he likes to mix things). After several months I realised that they are all variations upon the same thing (seeing and getting my arse kicked by his effective Taiji helped too) and that what really matters is which one you like to train. I enquired more about his Taijiquan and he said that he wasn't surprised. "I knew that you'd come back to Taijiquan," he said. I asked him why he still let me go around in a circle. "Everyone that studied Taijiquan and then came to study from me was the same. You are all frustrated and think that the problem is with Taijiquan. In fact, it is no more difficult, complicated or less effective than any of those other arts. You all needed to come to the conclusion yourself. Just hearing it from someone else isn't enough."

And so it is that I'm back onboard with Taijiquan, but also improving my Sanda (or some semblance of it) and slowly learning some other stuff to complement it. For any of you on the fence, think carefully about the way you are being taught and whether you have actually attained any Gongfu or not. If it has been years and you are still as weak and useless at fighting as you always were, it may be time for a change (whether it's still Taiji or not will depend on the quality of teacher you find). For me it is exactly as Shifu said it would be before I started studying from him; "I will help you to build an engine. If you want to put it back into your Taiji or any other art, that is up to you." Good luck everyone and keep training hard (or start, you lazy fucking bastard!). :D

In conclusion, the "feeling" is not found by searching for it, but developed over time through hard, sometimes painful work, then brought back into the form. It is NOT found by doing an empty form ad infinitum. Imagining that you are doing hard work and fighting is not enough!
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby WVMark on Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:56 am

LOL. You can add aikido to that list in your first sentence. I like all the quoted stuff from your teacher. Especially, internal builds the engine. What you do with it, is up to you. You fix the body's structure so that you can remove slack and knit it together in "whole body". Of course, you have to build those cross body connections, too. It's how the body is naturally built, but not a natural process to utilize. You build dantien so that it is in every part of your body. It takes a lot of solo training to accomplish. Glad you're finding your way.

Great post!
WVMark
Huajing
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:02 am

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby Andy_S on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:31 am

Maartens:

I get your frustration.

From 1984, when I seriously took up MA practice, I did TKD, then Hapkido, then Mantis and Silat. I was exposed to Chen Taiji around 1994 and have played with it since then. I added some Bagua to my repertoire around 1996, and have stayed with IMA, with a bit of BJJ added, since then.

As regards Chen Taiji: For years, I enjoyed the practice but my understanding of usage was back-referenced from my previous, more combative, MA training.

Then I went to Chenjiagou and saw the way they trained it there. Much more physical - or, if you prefer, "Gee! It's just rassling!"

OK, it was not "the ultimate MA" but it certainly taught me a lot and made sense of many of the Taiji techniques and training regimens.

Since then, I have continued with Taiji, but maintain an open mind toward other MA. One can, indeed, learn from many sources.

That having been said: My Taiji journey has been spread over decades. While I agree that one SHOULD focus on results, my belief is that IMA re-program your biomechanics and fighting style, offering much greater potential than - well, other MA. And if you look at the art as it was taught in Chenjiagou: Firstly the kids spent a decade on the basics before really being taught anything combative. Thus, they had a really, really strong foundation before they even started to fight. Look at the stories of Yang Luchang in Chenjiagou and you start to get a sense that he trained "gongfu" - ie TIME and effort.

In this sense, one has to suck it up and just put in a bit of time grinding out the basic shit. To me this was not a huge problem: I had plenty of combative experience in my first decade in MA (and I stil have broken fingers, nose and knuckles to prove it) so I was ready for some more detailed work after than, and also for some more solo, self-development work rather than purely spank-spank-spank.

(The above is simply one man's experience. Take from it what thou wilt. And if that is nothing - fine!)

RE: This

SNIIP
And so it is that I'm back onboard with Taijiquan, but also improving my Sanda (or some semblance of it) and slowly learning some other stuff to complement it.
SNIP

FYI and to remind you:
You said pretty much the same thing after you had met your first Chen Taiji teacher.

I understand that you have since fallen out, but do you not think it might be worthwhile reconsidering some of your opinions, which seem to have come full circle in a pretty short (six months-one year) period?

Time is a great healer, and also a pretty fair teacher.

Anyway...

Good luck with your training, it seems like you have found a great sifu, but IME, the CIMA are much deeper than they look, and I would respectfully advise you not to get hung up on any kind of "quick fix."

IME, FWIW and YMMV.
Services available:
Pies scoffed. Ales quaffed. Beds shat. Oiks irked. Chavs chinned. Thugs thumped. Sacks split. Arses goosed. Udders ogled. Canines consumed. Sheep shagged.Matrons outraged. Vicars enlightened. PM for rates.
User avatar
Andy_S
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7559
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:16 pm

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby Dmitri on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:40 am

if his students aren't exhibiting some internal power after several months of training that he is failing as a teacher

There are some exceptions, that time frame and what is meant by the word "some" here would differ from person to person, sometimes quite a bit. But generally speaking -- absolutely! Amen.

Good post indeed. Good luck Maarten.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9742
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby SCMT on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:16 am

MaartenSFS wrote:And so it is that I'm back onboard with Taijiquan, but also improving my Sanda (or some semblance of it) and slowly learning some other stuff to complement it. For any of you on the fence, think carefully about the way you are being taught and whether you have actually attained any Gongfu or not. If it has been years and you are still as weak and useless at fighting as you always were, it may be time for a change (whether it's still Taiji or not will depend on the quality of teacher you find). For me it is exactly as Shifu said it would be before I started studying from him; "I will help you to build an engine. If you want to put it back into your Taiji or any other art, that is up to you." Good luck everyone and keep training hard (or start, you lazy fucking bastard!). :D

In conclusion, the "feeling" is not found by searching for it, but developed over time through hard, sometimes painful work, then brought back into the form. It is NOT found by doing an empty form ad infinitum. Imagining that you are doing hard work and fighting is not enough!


Nice post MaartenSFS, and I agree... but I'm not back on board with Taijiquan just yet.

But I am very much on board with this bit about taijiquan

MaartenSFS wrote:For me it is exactly as Shifu said it would be before I started studying from him; "I will help you to build an engine. If you want to put it back into your Taiji or any other art, that is up to you
Last edited by SCMT on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Train with intent
SCMT
Anjing
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:48 am
Location: Northeastern North America

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:32 am

What you are describing is exactly what I posted some time back regarding the training I had seen as a child in Chinatown New York - strenuous reps of basic movements.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
Friedrich Nietzsche
User avatar
kenneth fish
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby yeniseri on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:48 am

That is exactly how I felt when I first started but as I "progressed" through varying "levels" of training through the decades, the feeling is individual, usually. If you like qi hugging then great, if you are searching for functionalty and utility, and you have the right ingredients of TIME and effort (Thanks Andy) and the proper environment, you have it made. If one cannot get it, then it may be individual and lack of the "proper environment" along with the inabilty to find those ingredients.
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3805
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:39 pm

I'll do whatever this man says! Please ignore everything I said before meeting this teacher. It wasn't Taiji.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21343&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=i+recant

I'm confused what would your old teacher say about your new methods?
sounds like you've found a "way" that resonates with the inner you.
As others have said it may take a while before a deeper level of understanding
allows you to see other ways.

luck in training ;)

d
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10634
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:02 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Shifu said; "Song? What is Song? Do the form with a brick in each hand every day. Then do it without. That's Song."

Finally someone on the other side of the planet who agrees with me on this.

Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10330
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:51 pm

Martin it would be interesting to know how long you have been training
Judging by your age I would guess not longer than 10 years
You quote 5 arts numerous teachers and variations within arts
I wounder if you gave any of them a chance
Good foundations take time and you might not know how to spot where a certain type of training would take you
A lot of people agree with you but that only reflects their expierence
The fact that your teacher uses the same basics for each art means that is the way he teaches his combined art
To get you to the point he wants you but that does not make others wrong
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5848
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:13 pm

WVMark wrote:LOL. You can add aikido to that list in your first sentence. I like all the quoted stuff from your teacher. Especially, internal builds the engine. What you do with it, is up to you. You fix the body's structure so that you can remove slack and knit it together in "whole body". Of course, you have to build those cross body connections, too. It's how the body is naturally built, but not a natural process to utilize. You build dantien so that it is in every part of your body. It takes a lot of solo training to accomplish. Glad you're finding your way.

Great post!

You said it. :) But, shit, you reminded me that I forgot to ask him about the Dantian today..
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:28 pm

Andy_S wrote:Maartens:

I get your frustration.

From 1984, when I seriously took up MA practice, I did TKD, then Hapkido, then Mantis and Silat. I was exposed to Chen Taiji around 1994 and have played with it since then. I added some Bagua to my repertoire around 1996, and have stayed with IMA, with a bit of BJJ added, since then.

As regards Chen Taiji: For years, I enjoyed the practice but my understanding of usage was back-referenced from my previous, more combative, MA training.

Then I went to Chenjiagou and saw the way they trained it there. Much more physical - or, if you prefer, "Gee! It's just rassling!"

OK, it was not "the ultimate MA" but it certainly taught me a lot and made sense of many of the Taiji techniques and training regimens.

Since then, I have continued with Taiji, but maintain an open mind toward other MA. One can, indeed, learn from many sources.

That having been said: My Taiji journey has been spread over decades. While I agree that one SHOULD focus on results, my belief is that IMA re-program your biomechanics and fighting style, offering much greater potential than - well, other MA. And if you look at the art as it was taught in Chenjiagou: Firstly the kids spent a decade on the basics before really being taught anything combative. Thus, they had a really, really strong foundation before they even started to fight. Look at the stories of Yang Luchang in Chenjiagou and you start to get a sense that he trained "gongfu" - ie TIME and effort.

In this sense, one has to suck it up and just put in a bit of time grinding out the basic shit. To me this was not a huge problem: I had plenty of combative experience in my first decade in MA (and I stil have broken fingers, nose and knuckles to prove it) so I was ready for some more detailed work after than, and also for some more solo, self-development work rather than purely spank-spank-spank.

(The above is simply one man's experience. Take from it what thou wilt. And if that is nothing - fine!)

RE: This

SNIIP
And so it is that I'm back onboard with Taijiquan, but also improving my Sanda (or some semblance of it) and slowly learning some other stuff to complement it.
SNIP

FYI and to remind you:
You said pretty much the same thing after you had met your first Chen Taiji teacher.

I understand that you have since fallen out, but do you not think it might be worthwhile reconsidering some of your opinions, which seem to have come full circle in a pretty short (six months-one year) period?

Time is a great healer, and also a pretty fair teacher.

Anyway...

Good luck with your training, it seems like you have found a great sifu, but IME, the CIMA are much deeper than they look, and I would respectfully advise you not to get hung up on any kind of "quick fix."

IME, FWIW and YMMV.

Sorry that I'll have to keep my reply a little brief. Busy, busy...

Some of the stuff that goes on in Chenjiagou is good, but mostly behind closed doors. They are among those perpetually setting us back with their misplaced emphasis on the forms (and too many God damn forms - double Jian? Seriously???). At the other end of the spectrum, the better Chen fighters mostly have issues with their bodies, such as destroyed knees, from grinding those forms over and over (in some cases possibly incorrectly).

Now, I want to get to what you said near the end about me saying the same thing about my first teacher. First, I must say that they are leagues apart. I think that you misunderstood the content of the training. Yes, I worked hard with all three teachers, but working on what? With my first teacher I was told to grind the forms all day long. No internal work, no applications, no pad work, no partner work, nothing martial. That would come later, he promised. He also asked me to do a lot of strength training. With my second teacher it was different. Now some applications were shown and there was an emphasis on doing the form perfectly and seeking a "feeling". Strength training was out of the question. Still no pad or partner work. Again, this was to come much later. Worse, I was supposed to stand in Zhanzhuang for hours to search for deeper "feeling".

Thankfully I met Zou Shifu at around the time that I was totally exhasperated and ready to give it up for good. Read above for differences in the way he teaches. We do Jibengong training, each exercise of which is a fighting technique. Strength is built up where you need it. We do pad and partner work to check our progress and try to use some of the stuff we learn. Shifu says that if it really took ten years to learn Taiji that no one would have taken it up, as you needed it to survive now! The form is an afterthought - one that I like, mind you.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:29 pm

Dmitri wrote:
if his students aren't exhibiting some internal power after several months of training that he is failing as a teacher

There are some exceptions, that time frame and what is meant by the word "some" here would differ from person to person, sometimes quite a bit. But generally speaking -- absolutely! Amen.

Good post indeed. Good luck Maarten.

Yes, you are right. It totally differs from person to person and what, if anything, they studied prior to learning from him. :)
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:33 pm

SCMT wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:And so it is that I'm back onboard with Taijiquan, but also improving my Sanda (or some semblance of it) and slowly learning some other stuff to complement it. For any of you on the fence, think carefully about the way you are being taught and whether you have actually attained any Gongfu or not. If it has been years and you are still as weak and useless at fighting as you always were, it may be time for a change (whether it's still Taiji or not will depend on the quality of teacher you find). For me it is exactly as Shifu said it would be before I started studying from him; "I will help you to build an engine. If you want to put it back into your Taiji or any other art, that is up to you." Good luck everyone and keep training hard (or start, you lazy fucking bastard!). :D

In conclusion, the "feeling" is not found by searching for it, but developed over time through hard, sometimes painful work, then brought back into the form. It is NOT found by doing an empty form ad infinitum. Imagining that you are doing hard work and fighting is not enough!


Nice post MaartenSFS, and I agree... but I'm not back on board with Taijiquan just yet.

But I am very much on board with this bit about taijiquan

MaartenSFS wrote:For me it is exactly as Shifu said it would be before I started studying from him; "I will help you to build an engine. If you want to put it back into your Taiji or any other art, that is up to you

Just Maarten will do. ;) Whether or not you want to [continue] to study Taijiquan will depend upon two things:

1) The quality of the teacher and their teaching style.
2) Whether it fits with your personality and training and fighting styles or not.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Finding the "Feeling" in Taijiquan... You Can't!

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:35 pm

kenneth fish wrote:What you are describing is exactly what I posted some time back regarding the training I had seen as a child in Chinatown New York - strenuous reps of basic movements.

Indeed, you are correct. I thought I'd share my experiences through trial and error, regardless. ;)
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 116 guests