My dilemna with internal work

[XiaoXiong]

So I went to the tuesday night Wu Shen Tao ph thingy tonight. I was very clear on using only internal methods, and was really doing almost flawlessly. I made only a few small mistakes, but what I found was that while most people want to listen if I explain what I'm doing, one in particular wanted to instead make excuses and get angry at me that he couldn't win. He basically accused me of creep stepping in, and said that was what gave me an advantage, when in fact the reason I pushed him over and over and over was that he was not even aware of the internal mechanics going on. I've seen this now from quite a few taiji guys, who should know that they don't really know how to do taiji well at all because I beat them so much, and should shut their mouths, open their minds and try to find out something true about taiji, what internal means, and how to do it. But I get a lot of jealousy, and denial from the egotistical people. I have people say that what I do is bullshit on occasion, and it's almost always someone who clearly just thinks that I am pulling some trick off over and over or that I am somehow cheating and that's why I win and they don't. Another guy was getting oushed around a lot, and was like "this is wrestling shit!" and just quit training. I'm interested in helping people like myself who want to get better, but I am so sick of haters. And I have a few haters. So my dilemna is how do you train with someone who really has no common interest in the practice successfully? Should I just continue to work with all the different people of all types, or should I just work with the ones who are on the same page? Should I just keep pushing them around and pissing them off, or just leave it alone? It's like I still get the practice, but is it worth it? There are only so many people doing taiji anyway. It's really a pain.
Jess

[windwalker]

He basically accused me of creep stepping in, and said that was what gave me an advantage, when in fact the reason I pushed him over and over and over was that he was not even aware of the internal mechanics going on

Sounds like what he felt was your intent, which was causing him to feel crowded, while he could feel it, he could not explain it or deal with it. For most they will unconscionably lean into something they feel trying to brace themselves,

IME what I do is stop and ask them what they feel, most will say that they feel stuck or already out, I feel its pointless to push them out as in a way its already happened.
what I do is to show them that they can do the same things, and allow them to do it to me.
in this way they start to understand that it's something they can do, and it works. its also causes them to think about their practice.

in answer to your basic question there is a lot of solo work that one can do to improve their sense of it,
provided they are pretty clear about what "it" is and how to foster "its" development.
I would then seek out others working in the same areas. or maybe arrange something with some one
like "body work" to give a seminar at your location.

d

[XiaoXiong]

I'll try not pushing them out or wherever, but just maintaining control more. I like doing it that way sometimes, but I feel like the fa gives me good feedback at my level. If anything is out of alignment or tense the fa is not clear. I have had some injuries that caused a lot of problems I am still rectifying. I think for the people who have issues losing, it seems better to just maintain control, but also I know those are the ones who are really trying.
Jess

[Ian]

I was very clear on using only internal methods, and was really doing almost flawlessly.

If you're using your method almost flawlessly, why do you care what people think about it?

[Bao]

You seem to do fine! I am actually happy that you think in this direction and ask these questions.

I have been around practicing with many different kind of people, so from experience, I know that it can be very annoying practicing with some people. But even if you don't like it, you need to have some kind of understanding for people's sudden bursts of irritation. In certain levels, Tai chi practice can be very frustrating. It's very hard for people to accept that they suck, or have flaws or that they can't handle certain situations. It's very frustrating when you can't really figure out what you are doing wrong or why the other have such an advantage. Certain situations can really make you confused and screw with your mind, but the other person can not see this. I have been there myself, when I was younger, sometimes had a very hard time controlling my temper and not showing irritation. It's very important to not take it personally. You are there to practice, not to listen to derailing noise. And people who can't control their temper tend to feel embarrassed afterward anyway. If they won't, they are just plain jerks. Just try to find people you like practicing with, stick to those and leave the rest alone if you can.

[Azer]

It's pretty normal I think.

People who don't recognize the value of working outside their comfort zone will bitch, moan and make excuses as opposed to learning from the experience and developing.

I'd just carry on as usual, if your dealing with some particularly sensitive character and don't want to upset them, just find the openings but don't exploit them.

At the end of the day, if they cant deal with you and providing your not going outside the rule set, its only a reflection of their lack of skill.

[charles]

So my dilemna is how do you train with someone who really has no common interest in the practice successfully? Should I just continue to work with all the different people of all types, or should I just work with the ones who are on the same page? Should I just keep pushing them around and pissing them off, or just leave it alone? It's like I still get the practice, but is it worth it?

It seems, from your description, that you also want to teach people how to "do it right" (i.e. "with only internal methods"). Part of their irritation may be that you are not their teacher and they don't want you to be "teaching" them.

I understand wanting to help others, but, as you are aware, some people can't be helped: they don't want it.

If your primary purpose in practicing is to improve your own skills, it makes the most sense to work primarily with those who are on the same page as you. Still work with as many people as you can, but don't try to teach everyone with lesser skills how to do it. Instead, focus on your own development. If someone asks you, "How are you able to do that?", or, "What are you doing that you always have superiority?", that's an invitation to discuss it and show them. Otherwise avoid the temptation to be everyones' teacher.

Many of us have had clueless beginners forcing their ideas upon us as to how to do things. I'm not suggesting you are one of those, but, lots of clueless people are more interested in telling everyone else how to do things than they are in actually learning, themselves, how to do it properly. Some folks just want to teach everyone, regardless of whether they know anything to teach. Err on the safe side and don't be "one of those guys".

[windwalker]

I'll try not pushing them out or wherever, but just maintaining control more. I like doing it that way sometimes, but I feel like the fa gives me good feedback at my level. If anything is out of alignment or tense the fa is not clear. I have had some injuries that caused a lot of problems I am still rectifying. I think for the people who have issues losing, it seems better to just maintain control, but also I know those are the ones who are really trying.
Jess

one can "fa" anytime after they have others center, getting the others center, understanding what this means and is,
IMO is the practice
its better to understand why one gets stuck inside, how to resolve it, what this means.
the "fa" releasing is the easy part. If one can do any of the above the other for the most part is doing all the work.

In China, the same things happen with the exception that if one has enough skill so that they "dont resist, or disconnect" its a skill that is immediately recognized
as someone just wanting to train or practice instead of someone just wanting to push or win, despite weather the other uses force or not they understand
that their skill is not enough and get to feel skill with out getting broken or injured in the process.

the term push hands, would be better served if it was called "sensing" or anything else except "push" which IMO kind of gives it a wrong impression.
now where are those clips, you know what others call "Mexican jumping bean" this for the most part is not done by pushing, it is done by leading the intent
and understanding the bodies reaction and corrections at trying to regain it.

IMO, if one is "maintaining control" depending how they've stopped following. At first touch ones intent has already penetrated the other, in effect there is no other.
which the only way one can "not resist or disconnect" it would be like pushing ones self with ones own hand.

This is different then grounding the force mechanically which some advocate, yes it does work but IME its a very different approach and skill set.
regarding working with others "outside the comfort zone or box"

push hands develops a certain skill, it is not fighting or sparring but does serve as the biases of it in taiji.
why would one want to be better at something that is essentially an exercise?

why not just test weather one can use the skill developed directly?
the testing of the skill through push hands assumes that those testing understand and know what they'er testing.
in your OP, you understand but they dont, nor are they willing to help in the development of the skill, other then being crash dummies
for your practice. For many taiji people IMO it kinda gives them a wrong impression about the skill sets they feel they have and how to
use it.

Is ones practice "push-hands"

taking a page from the bjj guys
they dont roll with boxes or other artiest
but apply the skill to them.

training a skill



OMG its "chen" hope "Andy" dosnt see this

[suckinlhbf]

Cross hands with others is to find our own flaws for improvement. If we get upset on their responses, we are not in control of ourselves which shows we have something to work on. Grasp own own path firm without being getting sideway. Mind and Intent are really the basic of IMA in my opinion. They may not realize their own flaw now but could be later. Everybody walks on their own path. You can only help if they want and ask for it.

[Steve Rowe]

Open a club and teach officially, you can never really do it inside someone else's environment.

[shawnsegler]

you know what others call "Mexican jumping bean"

You are the only person who calls it that.

S

[LaoDan]

Jess,

I agree with what Charles posted.

It seems, from your description, that you also want to teach people how to "do it right" (i.e. "with only internal methods"). Part of their irritation may be that you are not their teacher and they don't want you to be "teaching" them.

I understand wanting to help others, but, as you are aware, some people can't be helped: they don't want it.

I keep my class open to all schools and all styles of Taijiquan, but it seems like most practitioners prefer learning within their own school. In area meetups with practitioners from other schools, I try to avoid teaching unless someone asks, or I know someone well enough to know that they are receptive. There are several teachers from other schools with decent skills, and their approaches and terminology used in explanations often differ from mine, so I know that my teaching approach would often differ from what practitioners from other schools are used to. If you offer unsolicited advice, even if you are sincerely trying to be helpful, then problems may be created. Let your skill speak for itself!

One of our area teachers with good skill prefers that his students practice and feel more rather than talking and trying to intellectualize the interactions. Here the emphasis is on learning to feel what is happening since every interaction (even in cooperative patterned drills) is different, even if that difference is small, and it is important to feel/sense the differences.

If the problems arise from something else (ego, etc), then there are ways that a more skillful practitioner can work with someone without causing as much potential conflict. As you mentioned, one way is to maintain control without pushing them out. If you have superior control, then you can push them out slowly (without them being able to change to compensate) without having to speed up (fa) to take advantage of their compromised structure/position.

Or you can get them wobbling and when they compensate, use that compensation to unbalance them in a different way/direction. You want to work on your ability to change with the changes and you do not need to push them out to work on this skill (pushing them out ends the interaction rather than constantly controlling the changing situation).

You can let the opponent dictate distance so that you work in numerous ranges other than your preferred comfort zone.

You can focus on not allowing the opponent to get any effective grab on you since grabbing is a common response to getting off balanced, and is a technique that many practitioners try to use to gain control over their opponent.

You can work on not allowing them to feel like they can do anything to you no matter what they try (defensive superiority rather than offense), or you can try to constantly improve your position/control (work on improving offensive superiority without ending the interaction by pushing them out) with the goal of making them feel like they are totally stuck.

There are other things that can be done when someone of greater skill is interacting with someone, and these probably vary depending on what approach you and your school practice. I would be interested in hearing other suggestions of what people with superior skills do during their interactions with practitioners from other schools.

Dan

[wayne hansen]

Xaio is there any film of you pushing or doing form so I can judge what you are talking about

[XiaoXiong]

I should make something, but no, no video yet. I am slightly intimidated by the idea, even while I think it may be useful, I also think a lot of people will just stay in denial. I am thinking about offering lessons again. I stopped for a while to practice and learn more, but I feel that I have a lot to learn still, and should not let go of my student mindframe. The thing about teaching is true. People just want to stay in their boxes. I am someone who likes to get people out of the box. I don't tolerate willfull ignorance, self-delusion, egotistically driven excuses, or self-agrandizing.

I guess this just came up because I was pushing with a guy for a while. I won all the exchanges, and he was obviously pissed. I asked if he was interested in what I was doing to win, and he said something like, "not really. I think you are just stepping in and that's why you have an advantage". He was being very immature and whining basically, and I just called him out. I said look at where we are, we stein the same place we started. We would have moved if I had even creeping this whole time. Then I felt like making things even more clear, so as we pushed I explained how the energy was moving and how I could take his balance or collapse his structure once I had his center. This was met with a dumb numb wall of idiotic denial. So that was it. I just kept doing it and didn't say any more.

I am just a begginer at this kind of internal work guys. I am not really ready to take on a whole lot of responsibility for it. I think my appropriate level of responsibility is to train it until it is highly refined and useful to me, and I can understand it well enough to really take all comers, and always win. I don't have that level of confidence so I don't feel like opening an academy is the right idea. I stopped teaching to start over in ima for a reason. I think I need to talk about my experiences and network with others to help further my education, but I don't think it's time for me to carry a banner for internal power. Even though I end up doing that here as I try to have discussion that inevitably gets interrupted and sidetracked into people wanting evidence.

I'm asking you guys to be patient. I am just getting to the knowledge. The skill is coming, the understanding is turning into ability, but it takes time, and I am not an expert. I am a novice.

Shawn, I'm thinking about paying you and Matt a visit some time. I want do some Gao research, and I'd be happy to do some training with you or anyone who is interested.
Jess

[leftwose]

I have only gone to the Wu Shen Tao group once (the timing conflicts with the class I take normally) but I enjoyed it immensely.

In your first two paragraphs you made two interesting statements.
I am someone who likes to get people out of the box.
I asked if he was interested in what I was doing to win,

What if it is not about you, to the other guy? The second statement could be seen as patronizing, especially. Maybe he was not interested in winning. Maybe he was trying to use the experience as a tool to explore Action and Reaction under pressure. Maybe he was annoyed that you kept turning it into a conversation about winning.

As far as training with people who are doing it 'wrong'. I try to use that as an opportunity to highlight how I can get better. It's why I like events like the push hand night.