My dilemna with internal work

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:19 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:So I went to the tuesday night Wu Shen Tao ph thingy tonight.

Can you just ask them to spar/wrestle with you? How much fun can you get from PH only?
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby charles on Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:11 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:I am just a begginer at this kind of internal work guys. I am not really ready to take on a whole lot of responsibility for it.
Jess


There are two common, opposing perspectives on this. On the one hand, anyone who knows more than someone else is in a good position to teach those who know less. On the other hand, if one is a beginner and is not willing to take on the responsibility of being a teacher, one should stay quiet unless specifically asked, and even when asked it is questionable.

Some believe the former, others the latter.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby XiaoXiong on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:07 pm

Ok here's the thing, I wasn't trying to be a teacher. I saw frustration and I took a chance at helping that backfired. While I do consider myself a begginer at internal work, I also am no newbie to martial arts. I don't want to be quiet about it. I want to get people going. I would wrestle any of them in a second, but many don't even want to do restricted stepping, or moving ph, because they are afraid and don't know how. It's pathetic, so I do judo and jiu jitsu to get some wrestling in a few times a week. I took a night off to go do the ph thing,but yeah it's frustrating. Only one guy at the ph thing is cool with really doing wrestling. He's the big 400# dude, and he's cool to wrestle with, because I can't get away with any mistakes, but he's not always there. Anyway, I'm just gonna do it my way anyway, but I do appreciate the input and will take it Ito account.
Thanks,
Jess
Last edited by XiaoXiong on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to the heart.
XiaoXiong
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby dspyrido on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:32 pm

So was this a meetup group or a class? If it's a class did you chat to the guy who runs it about your frustration?
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:05 am

It's a meetup. No chatting about it. I just came here to see what people thought, ESP Windwalker, because I know he and I are on the same page as we have some commonality in the sources of our taiji, and we understand each other. I want to make myself available to people, but I also want to be more effective on a personal level with people who are having challenges with ego related obstacles. I would like to learn to calm people down. In Chinese medical theory, I am extremely fiery. Some people love that, but others get burnt. I want to try to cultivate a more earthy element and bring some nurturing and stability to the two person practice. The taiji is great for that, but I still find I gravitate toward fire and bagua a lot. I am often mixing in bagua with taiji in push hands. I like to do Chin Na, and takedowns too with some partners who are up for it. But mostly I do the dull fixed step stuff with people who lean over forward or backward to try to maintain balance, and then get tossed out anyway. I have started pointing out the vulnerabilities of these kind of postures and how they are really ineffective to people, and many have started to see that it's not helping them toward their goals. Anyway, enough for now.
Jess
Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to the heart.
XiaoXiong
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby Bodywork on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:30 am

XiaoXiong wrote:So I went to the tuesday night Wu Shen Tao ph thingy tonight. I was very clear on using only internal methods, and was really doing almost flawlessly. I made only a few small mistakes, but what I found was that while most people want to listen if I explain what I'm doing, one in particular wanted to instead make excuses and get angry at me that he couldn't win. He basically accused me of creep stepping in, and said that was what gave me an advantage, when in fact the reason I pushed him over and over and over was that he was not even aware of the internal mechanics going on. I've seen this now from quite a few taiji guys, who should know that they don't really know how to do taiji well at all because I beat them so much, and should shut their mouths, open their minds and try to find out something true about taiji, what internal means, and how to do it. But I get a lot of jealousy, and denial from the egotistical people. I have people say that what I do is bullshit on occasion, and it's almost always someone who clearly just thinks that I am pulling some trick off over and over or that I am somehow cheating and that's why I win and they don't. Another guy was getting oushed around a lot, and was like "this is wrestling shit!" and just quit training. I'm interested in helping people like myself who want to get better, but I am so sick of haters. And I have a few haters. So my dilemna is how do you train with someone who really has no common interest in the practice successfully? Should I just continue to work with all the different people of all types, or should I just work with the ones who are on the same page? Should I just keep pushing them around and pissing them off, or just leave it alone? It's like I still get the practice, but is it worth it? There are only so many people doing taiji anyway. It's really a pain.
Jess

Eliminate the arms all together.
Don't do push hands
Ask them to demonstrate their understanding while you push on their body; Dantian, chest, hip, shoulders.
Usually this helps separate combative timing and movement issues.
Whoever can show a clearly developed dantian generating stability and power in their body... *usually* makes things pretty clear.... And pretty fast.
I say *usually* because some people will never understand high level work.
Taquan the monk said the same thing. Learn when and with whom you are wasting your time.

Dan
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bodywork

 

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:32 am

Eliminate the arms all together.
Don't do push hands
Ask them to demonstrate their understanding while you push on their body; Dantian, chest, hip, shoulders.
Usually this helps separate combative timing and movement issues.
Whoever can show a clearly developed dantian generating stability and power in their body... *usually* makes things pretty clear.... And pretty fast.
I say *usually* because some people will never understand high level work.
Taquan the monk said the same thing. Learn when and with whom you are wasting your time.Dan


nice ;)

If one is functioning or using their work on the intent level, for the most part most will not be able to handle it
you will run into
I have people say that what I do is bullshit on occasion, and it's almost always someone who clearly just thinks that I am pulling some trick off over and over or that I am somehow cheating and that's why I win and they don't.


They will up the ante until either you or they get injured in the process. More speed, power, movement ect. not really productive IME
What I do is to show them that they too can use the same ideas and processes that help to develop them.
For many, all they really want is to understand how to use it to beat or win against me, the first question most ask is how do they prevent this from
happening or what the counter to it is. My reply is that this is a wrong question one should learn how to do it, why it works, though this they will understand
what they should do or not.

As "Dan" outlined

in my own work and with those I practice with in China, we also use and work on the chest, shoulders, elbows, and wrist, understanding the coordination between the hips, knees, and ankles along with other things that allow them to empty the force they feel. There's not much theory used except the bare essentials to do it, and then lots of practice to do it. the real learning comes in when it doesn't work, it's then its examined against what one feels they'er doing and what one is actually doing, for many their body / mind perception is off.

I used to word with a lot of people teaching taiji. Its quite interesting in that because of their practice its extremely hard for them to use their same movement patterns "taiji style"
for many they want to add to, not really empty which is part of a lager reason that for most they wont get it. What they do often is to far off for them to use this type of method.

d
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10548
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:08 am

we also use and work on the chest, shoulders, elbows, and wrist, understanding the coordination between the hips, knees, and ankles along with other things


Once get a part done, we would forget about it, and work on the next part. Then, we don't stick on working with our body inside, and go for something outside from the body.
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Self-Improvement is Masturbation
suckinlhbf
Wuji
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:32 am

Bodywork wrote:
XiaoXiong wrote:So I went to the tuesday night Wu Shen Tao ph thingy tonight. I was very clear on using only internal methods, and was really doing almost flawlessly. I made only a few small mistakes, but what I found was that while most people want to listen if I explain what I'm doing, one in particular wanted to instead make excuses and get angry at me that he couldn't win. He basically accused me of creep stepping in, and said that was what gave me an advantage, when in fact the reason I pushed him over and over and over was that he was not even aware of the internal mechanics going on. I've seen this now from quite a few taiji guys, who should know that they don't really know how to do taiji well at all because I beat them so much, and should shut their mouths, open their minds and try to find out something true about taiji, what internal means, and how to do it. But I get a lot of jealousy, and denial from the egotistical people. I have people say that what I do is bullshit on occasion, and it's almost always someone who clearly just thinks that I am pulling some trick off over and over or that I am somehow cheating and that's why I win and they don't. Another guy was getting oushed around a lot, and was like "this is wrestling shit!" and just quit training. I'm interested in helping people like myself who want to get better, but I am so sick of haters. And I have a few haters. So my dilemna is how do you train with someone who really has no common interest in the practice successfully? Should I just continue to work with all the different people of all types, or should I just work with the ones who are on the same page? Should I just keep pushing them around and pissing them off, or just leave it alone? It's like I still get the practice, but is it worth it? There are only so many people doing taiji anyway. It's really a pain.
Jess

Eliminate the arms all together.
Don't do push hands
Ask them to demonstrate their understanding while you push on their body; Dantian, chest, hip, shoulders.
Usually this helps separate combative timing and movement issues.
Whoever can show a clearly developed dantian generating stability and power in their body... *usually* makes things pretty clear.... And pretty fast.
I say *usually* because some people will never understand high level work.
Taquan the monk said the same thing. Learn when and with whom you are wasting your time.

Dan


It's funny, I actually do the opposite and let them push on me. I'm not super good so sometimes they get my center, but I keep improving. But yeah, I'm just sort of baffled by the ones who are in denial. It's really an offense to my whole being, as I put a lot of work and time into finding these skills.
Jess
Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to the heart.
XiaoXiong
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby Bodywork on Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:52 pm

Hi Jess
Sure, either way works to show who really knows what they are doing when it comes to internals. Using the arms can hide that.... Or... Show very high level support from a strong, balanced, base.

In any event, why worry what they think? Just keep working your stuff.. For you.
Dan
Bodywork

 

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:08 pm

Thanks, Dan I will for sure. I just want to have as many training partners as I can.
Jess
Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to the heart.
XiaoXiong
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:11 pm

A tool for young people studying Taiji (and some of the old guys too)

laozi says:
虚 其 心 ,
xu qi xin
empty the heart/mind

实 其 腹 ,
shi qi fu
fill the belly

弱 其 志 ,
ruo qi zhi
weaken the will

强 其 骨 。
qiang qi gu
strengthen the bones.

In terms of push hands, this can be used to great advantage.
firstly- one thing that separates people's practice is the amount of effort which they expend when doing techniques.
softness and hardness are part and parcell of each other, but calm and emotional relaxation go a long way to improving technical repetoir.
To empty the mind is a good way to be ready to put new learning into it.
If you are getting in passive agressive arguments in class- it is probably not a one way thing directed solely at you.
As your level of skill improves, as does your ability to deal with these situations.
To fill the belly, in this case, I am going to bend into meaning that you ought to keep your skill mostly inside.
Stay centred- don't give your partner more of your energy than he can deal with emotionally, and also conserve enough energy so that if he gives you too much of his, you may deal with it effectively.
Push hands is not fist fighting.
Also, keeping your inention inside the dantian will be a very good way to learn waist control.
softening the will is probably the most valuable point of reference in this situation- if you would like to be good at something, you should not require to win at it every time you practice. If you won and he said you lost, you must not have won descisively enough to make it clear that there is a big skill difference between you. The bride cometh before the fall. (this is the part where Tom, and some others ought to come out and mention just how much a shit disturbor little newb I was when I started posting here. I also need to have my chops busted),
Strengthening the bones in this case can mean that you should be working on getting the structure of your practice under control. Keep working on it and don't get pulled down by petty conflicts with people who you ought to be cooperating with.
The best way to win a fight is to avoid it in the first place. If you become extremely skillful, tactful, diplomatic and lovely to be around- people will never need to get defensive around you.

That's all I got.

now for a cup of tea and a bubble bath....
mixjourneyman
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4570
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:30 am
Location: Guelph/Montreal

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:20 pm

mixjourneyman wrote: If you become extremely skillful, tactful, diplomatic and lovely to be around- people will never need to get defensive around you...


Words of wisdom. 8-)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby XiaoXiong on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:53 pm

That's what I'm trying to work on. I'm not very tactful.
Jess
Truth enlightens the mind, but won't always bring happiness to the heart.
XiaoXiong
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: My dilemna with internal work

Postby everything on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:35 pm

XiaoXiong wrote:That's what I'm trying to work on. I'm not very tactful.
Jess


lol doesn't matter. the wolf doesn't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. or something like that. i think someone quoted that quote here recently and it comes to mind now. but I hear ya on the want training partners thing.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests